tt5th Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Have to agree that it's just a matter of time. Once batteries become small/light enough to give reasonable range we'll be seeing them. Or maybe fuel cells in the further future? Electric none the less. Ten years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swooshdave Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Have to agree that it's just a matter of time. Once batteries become small/light enough to give reasonable range we'll be seeing them. Or maybe fuel cells in the further future? Electric none the less.Ten years? Nope, less than that. Newer batteries are more than light enough. Saw one electric trials bike that was only slightly heavier that a standard one. And the power delivery is superior. Once it hits the top level gas bikes will be obsolete. I just want to know if Gas Gas will need to change their name... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamjayzee Posted January 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Thanks for your input everyone, some interesting viewpoints here. I did some initial research yesterday and whilst I think it's viable, at the moment we will pay a weight and price penalty. It's hard to instigate a transition when you are offering less for more! However, there are still drivers towards this and for many people the extra cost and decreased (apparent) performance are not so important. Certainly, noise and acceptable use are very strong drivers. Nicks_TR34, I sympathise with your position due to you having had your collar felt whilst practicing, but consider this: I used to go mountain biking every weekend. Mountain bikes are not only tolerated but encouraged at places like Epping and Thetford forests. Both of these places provide some excellent trials terrain (particularly Epping). The Trials MTB crowd spend a lot of time doing exactly what we do on motorbikes, on bicycles. How would that be any different on an electric bike? With careful liaison with the controllers of these pieces of land, there is no reason why EV trials bikes cannot co-exist with MTBs. I think they have to be looked at from this point of view rather than from a motor replacement view with regards to acceptable use. I for one would love to practice in Epping; it has some cracking terrain. Sure, there are always nay-sayers in the UK, but it is politically expediant to move towards green initiatives so a cohesive approach could open more doors than it closes. I also sympathise with the position that IC engines are the reason many of us do what we do. There's a lot in this and certainly there are fewer more evocotive aromas than that of Castrol R! However, if this were taken from me, would I be prepared to lose all that goes with it? Not for me, I'd prefer an alternative. I can see that many people would be lost to the sport, but we may also attract many more that presently find an engine a noisy, smelly and maintenance intensive device. With regards to transition, I completely agree that an EV needs to feel as close to a traditional bike as possible. Weight at the moment is going to make it feel different, however power characteristics can be tailored to how you like them. This is a serious plus. Imagine trying out your mates new 4RT and falling in love with it's delivery so simply go home and download a 4RT map for your EV? That sort of thing enable users to grow with their bike and not fight it. Nick again, you mention whether an EV would be a practice aid. I guess for many people, probably. However I'm not so sure it matters about transition from your practice bike to your competition bike. I used to do much practice on a bicycle, that was about as far removed as possible, but it certainly helps your trials riding. Also, were my Beta to break and I bought a different bike, I'd ride it in a trial without any practice and enjoy it just the same. I'm no world champion so the (small) differences moving bikes makes, makes little difference to me; the fundamentals are always the same. This is of course on the pre-requisite that the EV bike feels similar to an IC bike with the same control layout. Thanks again everyone, Interesting discussion. Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicks_tr34 Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 (edited) Nicks_TR34, I sympathise with your position due to you having had your collar felt whilst practicing, but consider this: I used to go mountain biking every weekend. Mountain bikes are not only tolerated but encouraged at places like Epping and Thetford forests. Both of these places provide some excellent trials terrain (particularly Epping). The Trials MTB crowd spend a lot of time doing exactly what we do on motorbikes, on bicycles. How would that be any different on an electric bike? With careful liaison with the controllers of these pieces of land, there is no reason why EV trials bikes cannot co-exist with MTBs. I think they have to be looked at from this point of view rather than from a motor replacement view with regards to acceptable use. I for one would love to practice in Epping; it has some cracking terrain. Sure, there are always nay-sayers in the UK, but it is politically expediant to move towards green initiatives so a cohesive approach could open more doors than it closes. Its a wonderful vision Graham, but it is changing the perception of a motorcycle that is going to be uphill ... electric or not ... I passionately feel that the plethora of dog walkers, horse riders and MTB riders - because of sheer numbers - probably do way more 'damage' than the odd electric (or Gas) trials bike would!! ... yet none of those are chastised for using common areas and enjoying public land ... I don't see any of this as a reason not to have the vision and to try and push it forward. But changing peoples perception of motorcycles (whatever energy powers the 'motor') is going to be a real problem here ... Good luck though and a worthy cause. Oh and if the RC cars I have had are anything to go by, electric bikes are not going to be silent ... Edited January 14, 2009 by Nicks_TR34 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamjayzee Posted January 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 I passionately feel that the plethora of dog walkers, horse riders and MTB riders - because of sheer numbers - probably do way more 'damage' than the odd electric (or Gas) trials bike would!! ... yet none of those are chastised for using common areas and enjoying public land ... They certainly are! There are constant fights and friction between all these groups. Look at the mis-information spouted around to try and prevent MTB riders using areas such as the peaks and the lake district. I'm not against protecting areas of beauty but all these people forget that it is the activities of an area's inhabitants that moulds an area over large periods of time. What all these groups need to do is stop fighting and start talking as one. But that's a long way off, as you say! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wherry Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 (edited) I just want to know if Gas Gas will need to change their name... Yeah I can't wait for the new Electricidad Electricidad. Comes with a soldering iron to mend it when it breaks down too... Only joking GG fans. Edited January 14, 2009 by Wherry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamjayzee Posted January 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Yeah I can't wait for the new Electricidad Electricidad. Comes with a soldering iron to mend it when it breaks down too...Only joking GG fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subanator Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 I think the concept is brilliant, it will ensure the future of the sport. I have contemplated this also to building one, but water proofing the motor and components will be a challenge. I thought I might go into this something along the lines of a commuter bike first as mule, and learn from that to develop a trials version. With newer batteries coming available to the market and pricing will make them more affordable, like the LiFo4 type batteries. There is a lot of info out there and and some blogs and groups, dont just look at other dirtbike and proprietary brands, there are a few grassroots builds also, like the Lewis bike. The more open communication building one of these will see parallel developments, but some different innovation coming out and improvements to be shared. The whole idea I hope is to build a bike that is environmentally friendly, and can be ridden in areas closer to home that are not available currently, or even in urban settings (industrial estate trials parks for example!) Dont just view this for pure capitalist view of conquering an untapped market. The high end brand developers will do this anyway, but a budget build for the average Joe is possible even now. Here are some sites that I know of that offer a lot of info and help: http://electrocycle.ning.com/ http://www.electricmotion.org/ http://www.evmotorcycle.org/home/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamjayzee Posted January 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Capitalist? Me? Please... If you could just see my accountant for your rental contribution on my post.... Seriously, the commercial aspect is secondary to the less sound = more ground aregument for me, and also the technical challenge. I would love to turn up at a club trial and be able to ride an electric bike, just for the hell of it. subanator, thatnk you for the links. I have a fair old file on this project now, but every extra helps. I have quite a lot of ideas now and a lot of blind alleys have already been avoided by the kind input of everyone here and elsewhere. Let's see what happens! Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ridgrunr Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 I think it's how it works and how it's packaged. A buddy of mine is big into RC aircraft. He had both kinds of engines, 2 stroke and 4 stroke. He had thousands of dollars into those highly sophisticated micro motors. Things absolutely screamed...literally! Would hurt your ears! More than once he got a finger whacked good trying to start the things which sometimes simply wouldn't start, then there were the mixture problems and fuel flow problems and...well you get the point. He always hauled around a giant box to carry all the fuel, glow plugs, starters, tools, and everything else needed to get them to fly. Then a couple of years ago he discovered electric motors. That's all he does now. Throws the plane and controller in the back of his truck and he's off. Box is history. He was always out there in the parking lot at work during his lunch break flying the electric thing. Coudn't do that with the gas version because he could never get it started before his lunch was over. You could hear it if you tried, but it was nothing compared to his gas models. Even flew his helicopter on the control room floor. That would have never happened with the gas engine model. I love the IC engine. Have since I got that first 1946 Chevy pickup forty years ago. I have four bikes, two big road bikes, a quad and the Scorpa. But that love affair is going to end eventually. The world won't run on the IC engine forever. The greens (man I hate that term) will eventually kill it blaming it for every ill thing known to man, real or not. The main thing for an electric trials bike, car, RC plane or anything else is that it'll have to work as well and look as good as the IC engine model before people will go for it. With the micro fuel tanks we're seeing on the Trials bikes now, an electric model could probably easily have more range. I'd love an electric powered car to drive to work, but I need one that can easily run a hundred fifty miles or so without recharging. We have a lot of space between towns out here in the wild wooly west. But I don't want to drive something that looks like a bread box. Now build a cost effective electric with decent range that looks like a Pontiac Solstice and I'm there. Same thing with a trials bike. Someone builds one that looks cool and will run for an entire meet and you'll see them (not hear them at the meets). I think the IC engine replacement for almost all applications is a lot closer than we think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamjayzee Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 You make some good points ridgrunr. I too was involved in RC aircraft and for me the aircraft were just a vehicle to fit cool motors to! I would acquire a motor and then think about what to bolt it to, they were the main driving force in the hobby. However, whilst I never really had starting problems, the noise is always an issue. Even in a field in the middle of nowhere, the high pitched whine of a 2-stroke aero engine carries a long way. As a result, you can **** a lot of people off all at once! Do we need comparable performance? It would be nice, wouldn't it? But what if they took away our gas engines? I think I'd be a lot more tolerant of performance downgrades if it preserved my sport! Also, how many great experts take to twinshocks and pre-65 bikes when the sands of time catch up? Going from a modern mono to a 500 aerial seems to me a much bigger backwards step than the 10kg addition an E-bike may cause (That's a guess, by the way!). I'm not dissagreeing with you though, we all need convincing to put aside our preconceptions and fears and performance on a par with our current bikes means we have less to focus on and can get on with evaluating the bike. I am working on the 'transition factors' and identifying very specifically what it is about gas bikes that make them what they are to us. From then on, it's just a control issue and should be more than possible. Agree with you about tank range; I ran out on a trial before Christmas (my first time out on my Rev3 after a long lay off); that never used to happen on my Zero or Fantic 241! Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerroger Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 When you have solved the problem of battery life and water-proofing, how about developing a sound chip that reads throttle position and motor speed and generates an i.c engine sound you can listen to via ear-bud headphones? You could then switch between 4rt death-rattle, Arial chuff-chuff or Triumph Twin rasp! You could even synchronise the bangs with power-pulses! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamjayzee Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 When you have solved the problem of battery life and water-proofing, how about developing a sound chip that reads throttle position and motor speed and generates an i.c engine sound you can listen to via ear-bud headphones? You could then switch between 4rt death-rattle, Arial chuff-chuff or Triumph Twin rasp! You could even synchronise the bangs with power-pulses! Like the cut of your jib! Years ago when me and Skov were learning to get our knees down on road bikes, we devised the 'virtual knee slider' that would detect when it was close to the road and vibrate and emit a 'screeeeeeeeeeeeee' sound. The proximity would be pre-programmable so you could get the effect whilst virtually upright. The advantage of this system is that you could wear them on your office chair as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docheckle Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 roger soundboards already exist for model A/C reproducing the sound of any engine you desire from radials to merlins ! Graham take a look at the modern electric R/C scene, electric far outperforms the gas equivalent these days with the advent of brushless motors and Lithium Polymer batteries. There is an electric Aerial Atom that out performs a Ferrari ( on youtube somewhere), its just the range that is the problem, which isn't a problem in our sport. I think there is a market and money to be made for someone who gets the electric trial bike concept to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subanator Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) Graham, sorry about the capitalist bit, just that nearly all the provided links inferred branded products. Hence why I gave the home build reference. I reckon the weight penalty is well worth the accomplishment of actually building such a bike. Its sort of the same challenge to me why I ride a twinshock in events than the modern. Similar to yourself Graham, I have an electrical/instrument background and can see the alternatives from what is already around and whats off the shelf in the way of parts. I think its possible and hope you go ahead with it. I think the build wherever it takes you can always be improved or updated easily enough with new products and more availability. If affordable and can be designed as such, a second battery pack would hopefully give enough range for a trial. I have seen some of the lightweight petrol hybrid bikes (hybrid to mountain bikes) like these on the net: http://www.fxbikes.com/ http://www.projectm85.com/ It would be my ideal to get a trials version in a smaller lighter package like this in electric, dont need so much bulk to throw around, just need smaller lighter batteries! Edited January 16, 2009 by subanator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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