nigel dabster Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 As usual i don't understand what the big deal is here,If someone want's to drive to another centre and realise's there out there depth in the expert class and want's to drop down to novice class for a score where's the problem.I can't see the point of making a rider ride what ever trial for no award just because he drop's down,he may aswell go 2 miles up the road from home and go and practice with some mates and have a laugh. I think the problem arises when say someone from our centre, a handy expert ( 30 ish) who could maybe win the South midland centre championship, goes to richmond and rides as a clubman. No one knows who he is or what level he should be riding and he robs some great rides by over 40's clubman of their awards. I could name names this person is not fictitious. Also, and to name names isn't the point but when is it ok to drop down a class? over 40 45 50? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillary Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 I think we know to whom you are referring Nigel Dabster, but the problem is that even for good riders, like the guy to whom you are referring, and those that are his immediate competitors, continuing to ride the hard course is daunting and dangerous. There's always the thought of work in the morning to consider. Having said that, for a rider like me for which the clubman course is aimed, every good rider that decides to move down from the hard course drops me a place further down the list. It's what has happened in the Manx Two Day. I've gone from 11th to 111th in eight years. I'm not actually riding much worse (oh well, a bit worse!), the problem is 95 riders have moved from the hard route to the clubman route! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fivemeister Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 (edited) I think what is needed is a completely fresh and innovative re think of the trials grading system. Rather than having separate classes, why not just have a personal handicap system similar to golf. Your handicap is calcuated on a continual basis dependant on your results from each trial (which could themselves be severity graded - ie a result in a hard trial would lower your personal handicap by a higher ratio) Dunno, just thinking out aloud. Seems to have worked for golf for eons and allows all capabilities to compete together. Still have two or three routes and let riders do which they are comfortable with, but issue awards on each route dependent on handicaps? Edited February 16, 2009 by Fivemeister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fivemeister Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 On a topical note, this weeks Timperley cup..... MCN Novice Cup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordi Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 But isnt that the Yorkshire centre grading system at work? You have to work your way up if you have not ridden for a number of years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 I think what is needed is a completely fresh and innovative re think of the trials grading system. Rather than having separate classes, why not just have a personal handicap system similar to golf. Your handicap is calcuated on a continual basis dependant on your results from each trial (which could themselves be severity graded - ie a result in a hard trial would lower your personal handicap by a higher ratio) Dunno, just thinking out aloud. Seems to have worked for golf for eons and allows all capabilities to compete together. Still have two or three routes and let riders do which they are comfortable with, but issue awards on each route dependent on handicaps? Being a golfer I can relate to this suggestion. I think it has merit and could be a viable solution Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapshot 3 Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 I think it has merit and could be a viable solution What...ban Golf and turn all the courses into trials parks...good suggestion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillary Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 The classic of all time was when John Lampkin won the American World Trials Championship round in 198?? (2 I think), he was still graded as a Yorkshire Centre Novice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Firstly I believe that no one below professional level should be asked to ride anything they don't want to, and that includes the route. Second, Yes the O40 class is starting to become a bit of a joke as far as ability is concerned (for all of the above reasons) but without that class a lot of our trials would suffer. (Good ex Experts over 40 simply don't want to ride the A route at Centre level.) And finally (on a lighter note) in reply to Atoms post, If Dougie turned up at one of my events, I'd give him a free entry.... even if he did ride the C route with the pre-65's! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bilc0 Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) We sometime's talk about how amazing Trials is,the fact we can still compete in the sport when we're 65 yrs old +,this is quickly becoming not the case in modern Trials,not unless you want to work your way back down the sport from expert to complete beginner.Its going to get to the stage when a rider turn's 30yrs old and give's up because after that thing's get abit junkie. The only answer in my mind is we need another route in the section above the Expert route,call it the Supreme route,Supreme route for the hot shot's,make it as hard as you like without effecting anyone else..This is what this is all about is'nt it,the Expert route is becoming forever harder to cater for the hotshot's,and offcourse we need to cater for the hotshot's. I think the idea of a supreme route has been suggested on here by someone else a while ago but obviously fell on deaf ear's Edited February 17, 2009 by bilc0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamjayzee Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Not so sure Bilco. Where does it end? Back in the early 90s, there were a handful of good experts in the south midlands centre that could effectively hop and the hard route ended up being laid out to get a winner from this heady bunch. Below that, the next route was always a struggle for lowly novices or less able riders, but still a challenge for the better riders that didn't want to enter the circus of the hard route. Fast foward to today and I haven't noticed much difference! Sure, the Yorkies have (and always did have) tough challenges and I sympathise for aspirational riders who want to be upgraded but can't manage the route. But surely that indicates that the rider is not ready for upgrading. That's OK, we're not all going to be good enough to be upgraded and it's tough on the rider, but hey. It seems to me like in the sarf midlands, it's about right. And if a hotshot rides O/40 and wins, should any other O/40 be that bothered? He could always chose to ride clubman if awards are that important to him and knows of the presence of an ace. Certainly in Cambridge Matchless most of the clubmen who are in with a shout of a win will have enough little trophies anyway! I hope to God I never get upgraded because I don't fancy the hard route. No way. Not for me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bilc0 Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Fast foward to today and I haven't noticed much difference! There soon will be Graham,There's a big problem waiting in the shadows for club's across the country,now rider's can stop and hop legaly in the same section than non stop rider's,i don't need to write all the in's and out's of the mayhem this will cause apart from saying once the stop and hop rider's make there way through the rank's to expert's there going to want the COC to make the Expert route tougher so they have more of a challenge for there trade,so now where does the Expert rider go that want's to ride non stop but unable to trick there way through the route,he could go down a class well before he's ready and upset alot of people or he could give up the sport because there's simply no point going backward's. There's probaly still alot more Expert's in clubs that can only ride non stop than there are stop and hop's,so why not put a hard stop and hop route in above the Expert route and calm the headache thats waitng. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b40rt Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 There soon will be Graham,There's a big problem waiting in the shadows for club's across the country,now rider's can stop and hop legaly in the same section than non stop rider's,i don't need to write all the in's and out's of the mayhem this will cause apart from saying once the stop and hop rider's make there way through the rank's to expert's there going to want the COC to make the Expert route tougher so they have more of a challenge for there trade,so now where does the Expert rider go that want's to ride non stop but unable to trick there way through the route,he could go down a class well before he's ready and upset alot of people or he could give up the sport because there's simply no point going backward's.There's probaly still alot more Expert's in clubs that can only ride non stop than there are stop and hop's,so why not put a hard stop and hop route in above the Expert route and calm the headache thats waitng. Just make a new class, no front wheel or forks. Stop and hop till your hearts content.!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Not so sure Bilco. Where does it end? Back in the early 90s, there were a handful of good experts in the south midlands centre that could effectively hop and the hard route ended up being laid out to get a winner from this heady bunch. Below that, the next route was always a struggle for lowly novices or less able riders, but still a challenge for the better riders that didn't want to enter the circus of the hard route.Fast foward to today and I haven't noticed much difference! Sure, the Yorkies have (and always did have) tough challenges and I sympathise for aspirational riders who want to be upgraded but can't manage the route. But surely that indicates that the rider is not ready for upgrading. That's OK, we're not all going to be good enough to be upgraded and it's tough on the rider, but hey. It seems to me like in the sarf midlands, it's about right. And if a hotshot rides O/40 and wins, should any other O/40 be that bothered? He could always chose to ride clubman if awards are that important to him and knows of the presence of an ace. Certainly in Cambridge Matchless most of the clubmen who are in with a shout of a win will have enough little trophies anyway! I hope to God I never get upgraded because I don't fancy the hard route. No way. Not for me... I'm not quite sure how up to date you are, certainly in the 90's there was an intermediate class, and now there is a 50/50 which is the same as the green route in the yorkshire centre so there is more choice. over 40 in south midlands don't think there is such a thing GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 I won a few Centre B route events back in 2003 and took the Midland Centre Clubmans Championship, this meant that I was upgraded to an Intermediate, however I certainly do not have the ability or the wish to ride the A route which being an Inter requires. Luckily, I was 40 that year, so I could stay onthe B route and carry on enjoying my trials riding as an over 40. If I'd been a few years younger, when I was no more skilled (or braver) than I am now, I still wouldn't have ridden the A route, I would have simply not entered. Yes, we all remember when there was just one route for all, but to some extent the bikes were a limiting factor. It's a tricky situation for clubs and riders to be in, but that's how trials is. Two routes is the minimum for most trials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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