Andy Posted July 27, 2009 Report Share Posted July 27, 2009 It was the Reeth Three Day Trial this weekend, and though I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perce Posted July 27, 2009 Report Share Posted July 27, 2009 (edited) Keep niggling all you like but seeing as though the Club Commitee voted against stop rules for Trials a year ago we wont be changing it anytime soon. Thinking about it both the Scott & the 3 Day were excluded from that vote anyway. You know, one day most other folk will see sense & use the right rules for their Trials as well. PS. You owe AG a Sherco banner. Edited July 27, 2009 by PERCE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikespace Posted July 27, 2009 Report Share Posted July 27, 2009 With 210 entries, unless you heard 106 people complaining, you're listening to the minority Quite a few of the bigger trials are using the same rules. There's still enough of us fools willing to pay a fortune for the steam packet rip off to the Isle of Man every year, including you normally . I've no doubt the argument will carry on for a long time yet. I actually enjoy riding both, but I definitely like the fact that there are differences. I like to ride the no stop from time to time, a change is as good as a rest they say and I like the variety, and it looks like a few hundred other people enjoy it too. Having said that I've never ridden the Reeth 3 day yet (I bloody should have really) so my comments are not specific to Reeth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perce Posted July 27, 2009 Report Share Posted July 27, 2009 With 210 entries, unless you heard 106 people complaining, you're listening to the minority Well actually 200 as 10 of us are workers, it's a Planning Permission / National Parks thing. We do have a very long list of reserves each year though, so if anybody fancies dropping out..................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrc1 Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 So....if "stop permitted" is the way ahead....then we get longer queues (& all that entails) plus tighter sections. No thanks. Before Reeth I rode the French 4 dayer - stop & anything else was allowed. So great queues & ages spent riding each lap. That's how they do it & as a rider you have to put up with the downside. But there is no question that no stop rules speed the event up, that and a time limit of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 I reckon most riders prefer no stop , I wouldn't like to organising 200 riders over 3 days if they all want to mess about hopping & repositioning etc (it all takes time.) It seems the real issue here is interpretation of the rules. Part of the game is being aware of the observers interpretation which is bound to vary from one observer to the next . Like Rappers I have been around in our sport for a long long time. The most profound change I have noticed in all this time is the attitude of riders; 40 years ago every decision taken was by a human doing (or even being) and we grew up with this in mind. I often suspect that those guys who complain about dodgy decisions could avoid them quite easily by simply recognising they are being marked by a human and not a machine. simply a good morning and watch for when the pencil is used is all it takes to get a notion of how you need to approach any particular section. Clearly this issue is excascerbated at classic events because the riders arn't familiar with the observers and they have made an extra effort to get there etc. I have rarely come across an observer who has a sharp pencil for some and not others.....although the tempmtation and opportunity is there in multi day events....another reason to get to know the observer even if it is a self interested one. To summarize more understanding and less whinging would be better for all concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 One other comment regarding support tent/van/truck ....marvelous provided they dont take up all the car park (vis. west end at fort william). What riders need is simply availability of spares like clutch casings ,water pumps and stuff you cant afford to carry as spares. from memory I had to retire from Reeth trial years ago when I stripped the thread on rear wheel spindle when adjusting chain for 2nd day....to have spares around like that that is invaluable. The importers should as a matter of service to those who have bought from them provide a presence at classic trials such as this even if it is one of thier sponsored riders.. at the end of the day it's the punters who are paying. I had a spell riding Mont 4rt couple years ago and Adrien Prato ( A French Importer) always made even old codgers like me feel like a million dollar prima donna with excellent hospitality and service from out he back of panel van with a box trailor on the back. Just the right level of respect for his punters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b40rt Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 I have rarely come across an observer who has a sharp pencil for some and not others..... I try to be fair when observing, however I tend to give "beginner" riders the benifit of the doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telecat Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 (edited) Most clubs in the Yorkshire centre now run TSR22A or "Stop" rules BECAUSE THE RIDERS VOTED FOR IT. Yeadon Guiseley recently changed and to be honest it has not made for any longer events than previously. Mainly because all the observer were told that if a rider starts taking too long in a section they can warn them and if necessary 5 them for "unnecessary delay". The number of riders has not dropped either. In many cases at events this year it has been better than in previous years at the same events. In many cases when a change of rules is mooted at clubs many non riding "traditionalists" attend the meetings to out vote those who do ride leaving the "riders" feeling they have no say. As for observers some are very recalcitrant. One section at a Centre Trial where 22A was in force refused to mark the section as 22A and was "fiving" riders for stopping!!! Riders had pointed out to the observer his mistake but he would not mark to the standard required and the section had to be removed from the Trials results. Many others will only mark no stop trials and are well known for the manner of their marking and nature. In Many cases this is the club's fault. If you have a "no-stop" trial stop putting in sections that will "stop" 90% of the riders. Yes try and get three's off them because the best riders will get though. But you will stop many riders coming. I note that some faces that were at Reeth last year were not there this. A case of "once bitten". Reeth, The Scott and SSDT are probably events that "get away" with being "what they are" because of the stature of the event. Most of the riders though are self funding, (Amateur is not quite right for Trials), and so long as the event remains within their budget and ambition they will come back. Put it beyond both and you risk losing them. Edited July 28, 2009 by Telecat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daymoiom Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 First of all i would like to thank the richmond club for running another GREAT trial without question. My opinion on the matter (One People Might not care about) ive rode the 3day for 3 years now, and every year its been the same. if everyone knows the rules then i dont think it should be a problem, i have rode the manx for 5 years and its non stop but the local trials are stop permitted As long as the rules are clearly stated in the Regs. (which they were) then people know what they are riding and they are choosing the ride. So winging about it after already entering the trial knowing what rules they would be riding seems pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfoot Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 All Scottish trials have been no stop for many years now and I feel it works fine. That said I have no problem with stopping rules either. Both work well but the sections, as has been said elsewhere have to suit the rules. Ther is nothing worse for a crap rider like me than turing up to a no stop trial to find complex tight sections which really can't be rider no stop other than by the top 10. I try to be fair when observing, however I tend to give "beginner" riders the benifit of the doubt. I couldn't disagree more. The key to all observing must be to remain consistant throughout. That way no matter if its a slack or strict observer you know that your competitors are all being judged in the same way. Due to a lack of observers and riders at times at our local club we rider in groups and observe each other through the sections. This means that one group may be letting each other off lightly but others are being very strict. Its not ideal and I wish we didn't have to do it as I feel its spoilt some good event. We all know of groups that are marking slackly but what can you do? we just cant get observers. My point is that the lack of consistancy is what's spoiling some events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabber Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 All Scottish trials have been no stop for many years now and I feel it works fine. That said I have no problem with stopping rules either. Both work well but the sections, as has been said elsewhere have to suit the rules. Ther is nothing worse for a crap rider like me than turing up to a no stop trial to find complex tight sections which really can't be rider no stop other than by the top 10.I couldn't disagree more. The key to all observing must be to remain consistant throughout. That way no matter if its a slack or strict observer you know that your competitors are all being judged in the same way. Due to a lack of observers and riders at times at our local club we rider in groups and observe each other through the sections. This means that one group may be letting each other off lightly but others are being very strict. Its not ideal and I wish we didn't have to do it as I feel its spoilt some good event. We all know of groups that are marking slackly but what can you do? we just cant get observers. My point is that the lack of consistancy is what's spoiling some events. I agree with BF - the problem is inconsistent marking. Why should an observer give anyone the benefit of the doubt because theyve just ridden 110 sections. Maybe Tom Watson should have been given a few extra shots at the open golf, he's old you know and he'd just played 71 holes......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perce Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 I try to be fair when observing, however I tend to give "beginner" riders the benifit of the doubt. I couldn't disagree more. The key to all observing must be to remain consistant throughout. That way no matter if its a slack or strict observer you know that your competitors are all being judged in the same way. Due to a lack of observers and riders at times at our local club we rider in groups and observe each other through the sections. This means that one group may be letting each other off lightly but others are being very strict. Its not ideal and I wish we didn't have to do it as I feel its spoilt some good event. We all know of groups that are marking slackly but what can you do? we just cant get observers. My point is that the lack of consistancy is what's spoiling some events. I watched the Dougie '2' at Lower Mamore for the first time a few days ago. my initial thoughts on it was a 5 (fairly harsh) but then I thought would I 5 a lesser light for it & I thought no. Got to say though, if an Observer can't concentrate hard enough to watch the master through a section what hope have the rest of us? Anybody done a most cleans countback? As stated consistency is the key & then at the end of the day you still have to take the good with the bad. There's an awful lot that complain about the harsh calls & simply forget about the ones they get away with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perce Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 Most clubs in the Yorkshire centre now run TSR22A or "Stop" rules BECAUSE THE RIDERS VOTED FOR IT. Yeadon Guiseley recently changed and to be honest it has not made for any longer events than previously. Mainly because all the observer were told that if a rider starts taking too long in a section they can warn them and if necessary 5 them for "unnecessary delay". The number of riders has not dropped either. In many cases at events this year it has been better than in previous years at the same events. In many cases when a change of rules is mooted at clubs many non riding "traditionalists" attend the meetings to out vote those who do ride leaving the "riders" feeling they have no say. As for observers some are very recalcitrant. One section at a Centre Trial where 22A was in force refused to mark the section as 22A and was "fiving" riders for stopping!!! Riders had pointed out to the observer his mistake but he would not mark to the standard required and the section had to be removed from the Trials results. Many others will only mark no stop trials and are well known for the manner of their marking and nature. In Many cases this is the club's fault. If you have a "no-stop" trial stop putting in sections that will "stop" 90% of the riders. Yes try and get three's off them because the best riders will get though. But you will stop many riders coming. I note that some faces that were at Reeth last year were not there this. A case of "once bitten". Reeth, The Scott and SSDT are probably events that "get away" with being "what they are" because of the stature of the event. Most of the riders though are self funding, (Amateur is not quite right for Trials), and so long as the event remains within their budget and ambition they will come back. Put it beyond both and you risk losing them. So you're using rule tsr22a / yg then? Our Club Committee is made up generally of regular riders, a lot of them have ridden to a fairly high standard. Infact the week before we voted quite a few had ridden a Novagar round, shall we say this ensured a strong vote against stop allowed. Which faces were missing from Reeth? Give us some names? We've a mass of spare entries, a ride one year doesn't ensure a start next year. We also don't put stoppers in, over 3 days I think there was one biggish step on the hard route but as we ran it in the Scott it wasn't that big. All our Clubman sections are marked out to get riders through the section so they can at least get 3's, all sections are filled to look inviting & to take the fear factor out. Nature sometimes alters this & they turn out harder than planned & then sometimes they're easier than planned. How you can comment on this seeing as you've never ridden nor been is beyond me. We charge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telecat Posted July 28, 2009 Report Share Posted July 28, 2009 So you're using rule tsr22a / yg then?Our Club Committee is made up generally of regular riders, a lot of them have ridden to a fairly high standard. Infact the week before we voted quite a few had ridden a Novagar round, shall we say this ensured a strong vote against stop allowed. Which faces were missing from Reeth? Give us some names? We've a mass of spare entries, a ride one year doesn't ensure a start next year. We also don't put stoppers in, over 3 days I think there was one biggish step on the hard route but as we ran it in the Scott it wasn't that big. All our Clubman sections are marked out to get riders through the section so they can at least get 3's, all sections are filled to look inviting & to take the fear factor out. Nature sometimes alters this & they turn out harder than planned & then sometimes they're easier than planned. How you can comment on this seeing as you've never ridden nor been is beyond me. We charge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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