Converting Monoshocks To Twinshocks. Fair Or Foul ?

[old trials fanatic]

OK for those that dont know i do the report for the Peak Classic Trials Club for publishing in T&MX News and always post the same report here on Trials Central in the Trials Reviews forum.

As i dont feel that forum is necessarily the best place for a debate i thought it prudent to reply to a members posting but i thought it best to do it here.

Majdaz wrote.

"Hi Paul,

In respect to your well worded and much appreciated review of the recent Peak Classic July trial, I'd just like to ask why the win for Simon Foulke in the twinshock class was controversial.

I agree parts such as the engine and front end are ty mono, but the rear portion of the bike is a standard twinshock including the rear wheel. {and you will notice it has 2 shock absorbers}

I dont want to get too political one the subject of bike legality but you ride a "James" with a lot of sourced parts no older than 2006, apart from the service items on Simons bike everything else is either 30+ or nearly 30 years old.

As you know I too have a british bike a C15 bristling with expensive billet bits and altered frame geometry all in the hope of competing on the modern classic sections. So I'm not going to be a hypocrite and pretend that I ride a standard bike. I, like you and Simon and 90% of all pre 65 and twishock enthusiasts enjoy enjoy tricking them up.

All this development has come from the British bike brigade moving the bar higher and higher by men with vernier gauges and too much time on their hands.

But its naturally pushed the price of the twinshocks up and up to the point of needing the best part of

[andy m]

Took some finding but here you go.

http://www.trialscentral.com/forums/index....pinky+twinshock

[ishy]

Some nice modded machines but does it give the owner/rider an advantage ? if the answer is yes, Then it must be a foul. Then the question must be! do you ban the machines, or add a class for modded air cooled mono's.

I think it's a foul because the machine didn't start it's life as a twin shock, if the rules had stated this from the get go, it probably wouldn't of become a problem, if you keep letting the rules slide, in the end they mean bugger all.

[axulsuv]

GOOD POINT !!!!

[copemech]

Choose your own poison! Best rider will likely still win! I still like the ITSA approach though, two shocks, drum brakes, air cooled!

Do not really like drum brakes!

[swooshdave]

Choose your own poison! Best rider will likely still win! I still like the ITSA approach though, two shocks, drum brakes, air cooled!

Do not really like drum brakes!

Just wait till some thing like in Ishy's photo shows up at an ITSA event. Then the arms race will be on. Hope you weren't hoping that Fantic was going to get you by because now it's toast.

[nigel dabster]

I think if you refer to the acu classic rules it clearly states that the bike must have been originally manufactured (sp) with twinshocks. If not then the bike should be out. I think this is sensible as the argument on this particular bike is more grey because of its age. An approach along the lines of would it be fair as stated above if I weld on two shocks on my evo and compete in that class that would patently be against the spirit of it.So its wrong as you can't draw a fair line with adding two shocks.

[woody]

Why do people ride twinshocks?

It's because, generally, they have some sort of affinity with the bikes. They are the bikes they rode when they were younger, or the bikes they would like to have ridden but couldn't afford. Or maybe just because they like the look of the older bikes and even if they weren't riding in that era, they would like to turn the clock back and enjoy trials as they were on the type of bikes that were used then. They ride a Bultaco, Ossa, Montesa etc. because they like them, not because they are the best twinshock available. If that was the case we'd all be on Fantics.

So converting an air cooled mono to twinshocks has nothing to do with reliving years gone by and riding your favoured bike from that era. It can only be about creating something that is more competitive than a genuine twinshock - and there is only one reason for doing that - results. The bike never was and never will be a twinshock.

As mentioned above the ACU rules for the Sammy Miller and Traditional series are that it has to be a twinshock of original manufacture (needs redifining really as unfortunately, even this has a loophole that people can exploit if they want) However it is up to individual clubs what they want to allow. If our club ran a twinshock championship or gave awards to best twinshock, no way would a converted mono be eligible. They could ride it in the event no problem, I don't care what people want to do to their bikes, but not as a twinshock elligible for awards/points.

And yes they do give an advantage. The gap from a Yam mono to the twinshocks was huge. Even with twinshocks on, the chassis design, geometry, weight, engine are all far superior to any genuine twinshock so of course they give an advantage. And once you start throwing Beta TR34, Fantic 305/7 GasGas 330 into the equation where does it end. What chance does a 70s Bultaco or KT stand against those bikes.

As for riding for fun, that's true to a point. We all ride for the enjoyment of it but we ride in competitions and everyone wants to do the best they can - on a level playing field and in the fairness and spirit of the class we ride in. If we only ride for fun, then take the scenario of an aircooled mono that has been converted because the original shock is knackered beyond repair. The owner should have no qualms about continuing to ride it in the aircooled mono class, the fact that they will be slightly disadvantaged now against the other monos won't matter - they are only riding for fun....

The cost issue of twinshock vs aircooled mono isn't really an issue either. There are plenty of twinshocks under

[old trials fanatic]

Nice one Woody as usual spot on and to the crux of the matter. I only wish i'd had the balls to write what you have.

[feetupfun]

I'm pleased to report that I rode an event two weeks ago that has a tradition of encouraging the riding of older twinshock trials bikes.

In previous years at this event there had been a ruling that bikes had to be made before 1980, but for this year the twinshock bike age rule was relaxed to align with the standard rules of the local licencing body, which has a cut-off date of 1987 (to intentionally allow TLR250s to compete).

The pleasing thing for me was that out of thirty-something riders, all but one rode on pre-1980 bikes, despite many riders also owning post-1980 twinshock bikes. This is a nostalgia event that is run to maximise socialisation, and is seeing increased participation every year.

At the other end of the spectrum, at the state trials titles event a few weeks before the above mentioned trial, every twinshock trials bike was a post-1980 model and there were only seven entries in the class.

[mattylad]

I would like to give you my thoughts from a European perspective where I do most of my riding.

Classic trials in Europe is for only classic bikes!

Entries normally in the 50 to 80 rider range. Multi day event 200 to 300.

Bikes are much less developed than in UK and the emphasis is on enjoyment!!!

Sections are designed for older bikes with not too many tight turns.

The rules are simple, aircooled twinshocks with drum brakes. Even the dreaded converted mono is thankfully not too common, these tend to be ridden by less able riders or ones who move up a class from their normal capabilities.

The key is "honesty" to both yourself and fellow competitors!

The social aspect is very important with beer and BBQ at the end of the day followed by the prize giving.

Punchcards are used which of course means more observers.

We also have either a pre 74 (France) or pre 78(rest of Europe) class with currently very stock bikes. This allows early spanish bikes to have a class of their own. i.e a 250 Bult is not competing against a SWM Jumbo or Fantic 240.

I think it is the wrong way to go to allow old blokes on modern bikes to ride in the same event.

Here the sections are made for old blokes on old bikes. I.e. no big steps.

Have to say that all the bikes coming from UK are normally of a much higher (and more expensive) engineering standard than over here.

E.g. tubeless rims are very rare! 300 quid rebuild is a non starter when you buy a S/H standard for 50.

Don't know what the solution is but the 10,000 pound winner must be avoided.

A way needs to be found of taking the cost aspect out of the twinshock scene other than that I am afraid you are right it will die for all but a dedicated few.

Why not consider an "Evolution" class for everyone who doesnt want to ride a standard bike. here anything goes loadsamoney or converted mono could ride against each other.

For the rest a standard twinshock class could be:

stock frame (delugging, removing brackets for road gear, removal of under engine tubes all acceptable as these were common period mods)footrest and rear suspension mounting points could be modified (such as with stock Yams looking like Majesty) , fork diameter, stock yokes, and wheel hubs, with a standard wheelbase (within 25mm ???), swing arm could be changed. Engine must retain original crankcases, outer cases, cylinder and head. (The rest is hidden anyway so you would never confirm a modified porting for example). Carbs anything goes except fuel injection. Exhaust, airbox no restriction.

Modifications should be based on improving reliability (ignitions) rather than increasing performance, as no one wants a long push home!!!

Even these definitions allow significant scope for development without making the bikes overly expensive or performing so much better than "real standard" bikes.

I still think that a good rider on a stock bike would come out on top, again I come back to one of my first points is that the rider needs to be "honest" to himself and abide by the spirit of whatever rules are introduced. After all it is only a sport

Edited August 7, 2009 by mattylad

[bilc0]

Sound's like a good idea to give them there own class,if there not happy with riding against themselve's on the day stick them in the mono class.

Atleast your looking at the problem OTF and not just pretending it's not there.

[bobtlr]

hey,

idd in europe the bikes are not that special, most twinshcks are stock or mayby other carb and exhaust fitted.

i ride a lot in twinshock experts and to win you don't need a special bike (mine is a stock tlr 250 on a tubeless rim)

you can ride modern events on those bikes also, they are great fun to ride.

In Belgium winning is not so important its a verry social thing and all about having fun.

of corse most people like to do well but its still 90% the rider that makes the differance.

regards bob

[jon v8]

Once again Woody has hit it right on the head - excellent post. The only thing I would add is that in most cases I have seen is that converted mono's are ridden by people who could win on a Puch Maxi,any standard twinshock would do them well enough to win.As a rider of less than good ability I dont care,I'm not a really competative person by nature although it was nice to see my name in TMX for the first time this week since riding the "hard route".Point is seeing the top riders winning on the cheat bikes must jar off lots of riders who are aiming for the top.

As normal I'm heading the other way,I'm going to build a rigid Ajay/Matchbox to ride the easy route on,the last couple of years it seems there are less and less big bangers being used,so if anyone has any bits lying around - I'm in the market.

[andy m]

Hi Jon what about the serow project ?