Sense At Last

[beatabeta]

why is no stop going to suddenly increase wtc numbers?

Great comment...

It wont increase riders and it could even go the other way and make some young riders who were toying with maybe riding WTC to back away from it.

ie: a section that they think they might manage for zero if allowed to stop could easily turn into a 3 as they stop a few times to compose themself or a 5 if they attempt it no stop and have a big off.

The best WTC Riders will still stop when they need to and sadly get penalised and take a point for the stop.

These guys are the best of the best, know their limits which means that they would have to lose 1 point rather than risk a 5.

Sadly those that are not the elite (outside top 6 or 7) may be tempted to have a go without stopping which could have catastrophic results and someone getting badly hurt.

For my money this is pointless and stupid at the top level of the sport and even more pointless and stupid at club level.

Now the best rider in a club trial may not win the trial. This is like saying the FA saying 'Birmingham have won the premier league even though they only finished in 12th place but they let in the least goals during the season'

Trials at risk of turning into the next F1 - too many rule changes, no one knows why and people look elsewhere....

This is making me consider more mountain biking already. I like 'stop' rules (am 34 and can trick ride a bit) for the simple fact that I can compose myself and see what I am doing. Surely if you are doing trials you can balance! so what difference at club level does non stop offer?

[trialsnutterman]

a section that they think they might manage for zero if allowed to stop could easily turn into a 3 as they stop a few times to compose themself or a 5 if they attempt it no stop and have a big off.

The best WTC Riders will still stop when they need to and sadly get penalised and take a point for the stop.

These guys are the best of the best, know their limits which means that they would have to lose 1 point rather than risk a 5.

Sadly those that are not the elite (outside top 6 or 7) may be tempted to have a go without stopping which could have catastrophic results and someone getting badly hurt.

I think your thinking in the wrong direction, yes making it no stop does make the sections much harder to clean that's the idea, then the section will have to be made much easier, the largest steps taken out and replaced with smaller ones therefore making the sport safer.

Oh and the best riders won't get a 1 for stopping they will get a 5.

[tricky dicky]

I am all for the return to non stop trials. The current rule is absolute crap and proves nothing. I attended the youth trials in Northumberland at the weekend and the trial wasnt up to much due to the rules. If the trial was non stop it would have been a good trial and every section could have been done non stop aswell. I dont ride either the novogars or BTC at the moment cos the rules are crap and I am very competant at hopping. I have witnessed trials change from the early 90's when reversing was allowed to then go to stop for a dab then go backwards to the current crap we have. I hated the stop for a dab rule when it came in in 1998 as I had spent time practising how to hop but then I had to learn to ride non stop and it made me a far better rider. At world level they dont need the big steps to take marks and its never the big steps that take marks anyway so some of the comments on here are absolute nonsense. If trials are non stop then you get one chance to get it right not 90 seconds to **** about lining up. And just for the record the hopping can be done non stop aswell. I have never quite understood the argument about having to make trials hoppy to take marks cos of the land not quite being as good as some places. Surely if the trial has some tight turns but is no stop then people would lose far more marks? I showed one of my mates who doesnt ride trials what we have to do at the moment with the hopping and then showed him a no stop section and his response was that theres no chance he could even attempt a hoppy section but if it was no stop he would be keen to have a go at trials. That comment alone summed a lot of things up for me. I am with trialsnutterman and lets get trials back to how they should be and encourage some new blood into the sport.

[grahamjayzee]

Interesting topic.

I agree with a lot of what you say tricky dicky. I'm a mid-40s clubman and don't hop. I have no desire to and am grateful that it is so far not necesary in the trials I ride in the south midlands centre. Were we to ride no-stop, I would be quite happy. Sure, I'm going to lose some arguable 5s as I often take tight turns very slowly, but I would welcome the stance that the sections are laid out to ride in one movement. What is nice though is that the sport at my level didn't change in the 13 years I was away from it. And so it shouldn't or where can guys with immaculate old 70s and earlier bikes compete without having patronising sections?

But I'm a clubbie and so this shouldn't matter so much. HOWEVER, and this is a biggie, I brought two potential newbies along to a trial on friday and the overriding impression they took away was 'how do you do all that trick riding?'. Is this the question we want to leave in newbies minds? Particularly as it has little to do with stopping (as TD pointed out, many of these riders were 're-aligning' whilst on the move). What we would hope is that a good, flowing ride that shows skillful bike handling become aspirational.

I also would love to see the current crop of top level riders attacking some of the WTC sections that the likes of Saunders and Tarres had to deal with in the 80s; it was much better to watch. Without spectators and interest, our sport cannot thrive.

Graham

[jimmyl]

I have made the following argument before and feel it is worth making again, what ever rules we run to, the Clerk of the Course or section plotter can still make or break the trial.

JD's comments from his article

"From a World Championship point of view I imagine that Martin Lampkin can

[metisse]

MY local mate at trials club here in France is really peed off at the rule changes, when he marks out a trial each year he looks for bigger and bigger steps and the sections take longer and longer. This not because they dont enforce the time limit but when one of these young bucks fives it, he wont get out of the section until he has had at least another two goes at it.

Modern trick riding is impressive but is it what trials are really about. Here trials are cancelled if we have some rain because they won t modify the sections accordingly and deem it too dangerous . I hope this encourages more bums on seats and I for one may now consider putting the Pre 65 aside and buying a modern bike.

[dixie]

MY local mate at trials club here in France is really peed off at the rule changes, when he marks out a trial each year he looks for bigger and bigger steps and the sections take longer and longer. This not because they dont enforce the time limit but when one of these young bucks fives it, he wont get out of the section until he has had at least another two goes at it.

Modern trick riding is impressive but is it what trials are really about. Here trials are cancelled if we have some rain because they won t modify the sections accordingly and deem it too dangerous . I hope this encourages more bums on seats and I for one may now consider putting the Pre 65 aside and buying a modern bike.

Also heard some trials have wine stops between sections small glass for clubman big glass for experts,could catch on , Now that would even it out.

[andysv1k]

ok, i'll jump into the firepit!

i havnt yet ridden a trial and have only been riding a few weeks, so please read this as a newbies opinion and treat as such, dont flame me!

im not in favour of changing trials to no stop.

i cant bounce and hop around like i see lots of people doing, but i do have pretty good balance, i can bring the bike to stop and balance, i often do this before attempting an obstacle (i use the term obstacle loosely as my idea of an obstacle after a few weeks riding is probably a small pebble compared to most peoples)

If i knew that i had to attempt a section and the pressure was on to keep moving and not stop, it may put me off entering trials, i may just keep riding just for fun. if i get halfway through a section and need to stop to assess how im going to finish it, i can usually do this for a second or so without problem, then carry on through to the finish. If now i know that i must get all the way through without stopping, its even more pressure.

definately a thumbs down from me, from the perspective of someone just getting into trials and looking to start competing.

Andy.

[grahamjayzee]

Andy, I think that you may view things this way because the trials you have seen are laid out with the current rules in mind.

A few months ago I rode a Nene Valley trial at Glendon quarry. It wasn't too difficult and was won (for the clubbies) in single figures. However, every section was not only possible non-stop, but more likely to succeed if ridden this way. What's more, there was some lovely, big, long climbs that still required you to put your wheels in the right place, but felt GOOD when you had cleaned them! Isn't that what it's all about? If the sections had been set to select a winner from the 'stoppers and hoppers', then this land would most likely have been ignored.

Don't get me wrong, I can balance and like to gather my thoughts too, but if the sections are laid out for no-stop, then there's no reason why there cannot be 15' of flat ground to allow you to gird your loins before a challenge, so you can keep moving. That's exactly how this trial was laid out, and trust me, it worked for everyone!

There is another point here though, and it is the point Jimmyl made; regardless of the rules, someone has to manage the event. It needs to be laid out sensibly and rules sensibly and fairly enforced. Back to Mettise's point; the young guy who insists on riding the section after he's fived it really should be asked to vacate the section! It's hardly sporting, and I usually suggest to riders that have fived that they get out as quickly as possible. Usually, a bit of help does the job (particularly if when pulling a bike out, you pull it out of section!); it's courteous and sporting, and that's what trials is all about in my small world!

[ishy]

I also agree with Ishy's idea on making the SSDT a WTC event. The Scott is another potential. Both are rideable by the Clubmen, but tough enough to take marks off the top boys if tweaked just a little.

My thoughts about using the SSDT as a round were a bit tongue in cheek Andy, no way would I like to see any changes to the event just to cater for a couple of riders, that it just why the world championships went down the toilet in the first place.

Those that rode no stop back when! had to go along with rule change when the world riders started trick riding, it would be no different for the young riders today to change back to those style of rules.

[beatabeta]

Oh and the best riders won't get a 1 for stopping they will get a 5.

Hang on!

Is this the no stop rules that most clubs used a few years ago -

stop and balance = 1 point

Or is this the no stop rules I have only ever experienced in North Yorkshire (worst example was in the Wainwright trial) -

stop and balance (no matter how brief) = 5 points and a fail

Sorry, but if it is the latter that will make club trials a joke and a world trial daft and potentially even more dangerous (see my previous post)

I just about stuck with trials a few years ago and could live with losing 1 point for stopping but if it is a 5 for stopping then the FIM or ACU are once again turning the sport we love into a farce....

Is there any official classification on what rules the FIM want to run WTC at and ACU want to run trials at?

The other negative impact no stop had a few years back was the 'dynamic stop' which was allowed ie: rider was flicking the back round, you have the moment where the back wheel lands and settles where you are 'stationary' before setting off again.

Now if you are an observer you will have to decide which is a dynamic stop and which is a stop. This will -

1: P*ss riders off no end

2: Potentially cause even longer queues as a riders 'talk' with the observer

3: Put people off observing : who wants to give up their Sunday to have riders moaning at you because you judged them to have stopped for a fraction of a second and gave them a 1 (or mayber a 5!!!!)

Think the risk here is losing all the young talent that is up and coming to another sport.

I know lots of people who will not bother riding if they get a 5 for stopping.

[tricky dicky]

I agree with ishys last comment. The same riders will win whatever the rules so it makes no odds to them. Trials needs making more enjoyable for the majority and non stop is the way to solve that. I remember the uproar in 98 when the rules were changed to stop for a 1. Everybody was against it until they tried it. There is much more of a sense of achievement of cleaning a section and being on line first time rather than messing about lining up. I will openly admit that I didnt like non stop at first but it makes better riders and people actually get rewarded for good rides unlike this farce we are in at the moment. Ive seen people have 100 dabs, drag the bikes sideways up hills and allsorts to be rewarded with a 3. I'm sorry but that is never a 3 and they dont give a bugger about the 30 poor sods getting drenched in the queue.

[bilc0]

world trial daft and potentially even more dangerous.

I think you might be right,If there going to go full non stop in world trial there going to have to make the section's 1000 time's as mad as anyone will ever find at a club trial,so your still not going to see a very good Expert rider from a club wanting to have a pop at a world trial.

What we had we had your never get them days back again.

[the addict]

WTC sections will get bigger next year not smaller and more dangerous, I think this will happen across the board down to club trials, a tight turn with no run up at a step etc limits the size of the obstacle, plenty of run on the same obstacle makes it easy so we'll get a good non stop run up and a much bigger step etc. Same for all events, the top lads will adapt overnight as they did years ago when it went non stop and many lads will pack in, lads like hopping and stopping ask them.

AndySV had a very good point about being able to stop infront of an obstacle before having a go, I like to do that and many do, have a go when your not ready and it'll be a good crash or as Andy said not bother with events. The stop for 1 mark was a bloody joke, this will be worse for any thing south of Stoke, most of our land down here is small and very limited on what can be set out, the hard route has to be hoppy to take marks and have little or no run up at things. I hope me old mate Scorpa3 as a Clerk of the course and Club sec could say how the hard route would change at say Saintbury to take marks without stopping? I may be wrong and hope I am but I think it will involve run ups at some right nasty stuff or that fecking log

Edited August 10, 2009 by The Addict

[tricky dicky]

The whole point is that if trials have tight turns but you cant stop to line up then the obstacles dont need to be big to take marks. The big steps DO NOT take the marks, its the fiddly bits in between. When the rules changed in 98 the sections were no bigger at all, they were technical with 1 chance to get it right and thats where the skill comes in. If you can stop and line up then it defeats the whole point and different lines will be used which is what trials is all about. The stop for a 1 rule worked perfectly until the observing got slack and it ruined everything. How come that in snooker if the player misses a pot they sit down and the other guy gets a go. Being able to stop and line up is like having another go when you miss a pot. The skill is getting it right first time not 3rd or 4th time like it is now. If anybody has got any world videos from either 98,99,2000,2001 etc then you will see that its far better to watch and its not elitist like it is now. I can remember watching the world round at Hawkstone in 98 and I was only 15 thinking I could actually have a go at the sections then cos they werent stupid big steps, they were sections that could be ridden. I remember Doug doing the last lap of the trial when it lashed it down for 4 and the next best was 30 and I watched him do every section and I can honestly say that he hardly hopped, he rode the sections and picked better lines than everybody else. That was skill, not this crap that we have at the moment. Kepp the hopping for the 6 that ride indoors.