Sense At Last

[nigel dabster]

My thoughts about using the SSDT as a round were a bit tongue in cheek Andy, no way would I like to see any changes to the event just to cater for a couple of riders, that it just why the world championships went down the toilet in the first place.

Those that rode no stop back when! had to go along with rule change when the world riders started trick riding, it would be no different for the young riders today to change back to those style of rules.

Has it ever been a wtc event?

Would Bou riding 100miles a day prove anything?

How many points would they get 120 or 20 for winning?

[beatabeta]

So what are the proposed changes?

Is it :

stop = 1 or

stop = 5

Quite like the idea of the stop in front of an obstacle but then is that no stop trials?? NO

and how many riders will say 'Oh come on mate I only stopped in front of the obstacle'

I'm fully in favour of only getting one attempt at a section rather than get it wrong, hop back try again etc etc but HOW can failing someone and potentially ruining a riders trial for stopping for a second be a good thing??

As The Addict says 'many lads will pack in' lads being the key word here, the kids that have grown up hopping and know no different wont want to change and will up sticks and do something else - again HOW can that be a good thing?

You may keep the older rider happy with no stop, but you will isolate a lot of experts and youth riders - again HOW can that be a good thing?

Sure the top riders will adapt like The Addict says but what happens when these top riders retire / stop trials? and the great youth potential that was in trials has disappeared to Enduro or Cyclo trials?

[nigel dabster]

Having seen almost as many WTC trials as Andy over the last few year, but having a bit of experience of riding,I really think/know that whatever the rules for the top lads there is not going to be an influx of riders at pro junior or youth level.

What is important is the attraction of the sport to the youngsters and stop or no stop rules are not the panacea to our problems, numbers of new blood is the problem.

If we cannot attract new riders then eventually the sport will become more and more a minority motorsport till it goes the way of motoball or grasstrack.

[beatabeta]

Having seen almost as many WTC trials as Andy over the last few year, but having a bit of experience of riding,I really think/know that whatever the rules for the top lads there is not going to be an influx of riders at pro junior or youth level.

What is important is the attraction of the sport to the youngsters and stop or no stop rules are not the panacea to our problems, numbers of new blood is the problem.

If we cannot attract new riders then eventually the sport will become more and more a minority motorsport till it goes the way of motoball or grasstrack.

Pretty much spot on there with your comment Dabster, so why do they insist on keeping changing things??

Now you could get the younger rider telling his/her mates 'yea it was great but they keep p*ssing about with the rules' but hey, at least the over 40's crowd can tell their mates 'yea, it's just like it was in the 60's' what an advert eh? technology and bikes are so superior and advanced but the rules are much the sames as they were 50 years ago.

To attract new riders you need to promote the sport, to promote you need to invest money and the ACU wont invest. You know how daft it is when great up and coming riders like Alexz Wigg were getting about

[trialsnutterman]

As The Addict says 'many lads will pack in' lads being the key word here, the kids that have grown up hopping and know no different wont want to change and will up sticks and do something else - again HOW can that be a good thing?

You may keep the older rider happy with no stop, but you will isolate a lot of experts and youth riders - again HOW can that be a good thing?

Sure the top riders will adapt like The Addict says but what happens when these top riders retire / stop trials? and the great youth potential that was in trials has disappeared to Enduro or Cyclo trials?

You might not believe it but I have grown up with the hopping rules and I want it to go to full no stop rules

I'm also a expert rider who has been a regular contender in the British championship but the last couple of years have just been p*^% poor so I had decided I wouldn't be competing in them again but this change of rules may just with a bit of luck solve a few of the many issuse with the current British champs.

You mention riders disappearing to euduro etc, I personal think that will happen whatever the rules but this year I've been going to quite a few downhill events and that's manly because I got feed up of the British champs and the stupid rules.

[dixie]

WTC sections will get bigger next year not smaller and more dangerous, I think this will happen across the board down to club trials, a tight turn with no run up at a step etc limits the size of the obstacle, plenty of run on the same obstacle makes it easy so we'll get a good non stop run up and a much bigger step etc. Same for all events, the top lads will adapt overnight as they did years ago when it went non stop and many lads will pack in, lads like hopping and stopping ask them.

AndySV had a very good point about being able to stop infront of an obstacle before having a go, I like to do that and many do, have a go when your not ready and it'll be a good crash or as Andy said not bother with events. The stop for 1 mark was a bloody joke, this will be worse for any thing south of Stoke, most of our land down here is small and very limited on what can be set out, the hard route has to be hoppy to take marks and have little or no run up at things. I hope me old mate Scorpa3 as a Clerk of the course and Club sec could say how the hard route would change at say Saintbury to take marks without stopping? I may be wrong and hope I am but I think it will involve run ups at some right nasty stuff or that fecking log

Lads have already given up thats why we are having this discussion,NO one rides championships ,world or british.

It is frustrating when as mentioned someone walks there bike up down sideways and back and still gets a three,its not trials

[dixie]

The whole point is that if trials have tight turns but you cant stop to line up then the obstacles dont need to be big to take marks. The big steps DO NOT take the marks, its the fiddly bits in between. When the rules changed in 98 the sections were no bigger at all, they were technical with 1 chance to get it right and thats where the skill comes in. If you can stop and line up then it defeats the whole point and different lines will be used which is what trials is all about. The stop for a 1 rule worked perfectly until the observing got slack and it ruined everything. How come that in snooker if the player misses a pot they sit down and the other guy gets a go. Being able to stop and line up is like having another go when you miss a pot. The skill is getting it right first time not 3rd or 4th time like it is now. If anybody has got any world videos from either 98,99,2000,2001 etc then you will see that its far better to watch and its not elitist like it is now. I can remember watching the world round at Hawkstone in 98 and I was only 15 thinking I could actually have a go at the sections then cos they werent stupid big steps, they were sections that could be ridden. I remember Doug doing the last lap of the trial when it lashed it down for 4 and the next best was 30 and I watched him do every section and I can honestly say that he hardly hopped, he rode the sections and picked better lines than everybody else. That was skill, not this crap that we have at the moment. Kepp the hopping for the 6 that ride indoors.

GO TRICKY DICKY GO

[dixie]

Pretty much spot on there with your comment Dabster, so why do they insist on keeping changing things??

Now you could get the younger rider telling his/her mates 'yea it was great but they keep p*ssing about with the rules' but hey, at least the over 40's crowd can tell their mates 'yea, it's just like it was in the 60's' what an advert eh? technology and bikes are so superior and advanced but the rules are much the sames as they were 50 years ago.

To attract new riders you need to promote the sport, to promote you need to invest money and the ACU wont invest. You know how daft it is when great up and coming riders like Alexz Wigg were getting about

[dixie]

ok, i'll jump into the firepit!

i havnt yet ridden a trial and have only been riding a few weeks, so please read this as a newbies opinion and treat as such, dont flame me!

im not in favour of changing trials to no stop.

i cant bounce and hop around like i see lots of people doing, but i do have pretty good balance, i can bring the bike to stop and balance, i often do this before attempting an obstacle (i use the term obstacle loosely as my idea of an obstacle after a few weeks riding is probably a small pebble compared to most peoples)

If i knew that i had to attempt a section and the pressure was on to keep moving and not stop, it may put me off entering trials, i may just keep riding just for fun. if i get halfway through a section and need to stop to assess how im going to finish it, i can usually do this for a second or so without problem, then carry on through to the finish. If now i know that i must get all the way through without stopping, its even more pressure.

definately a thumbs down from me, from the perspective of someone just getting into trials and looking to start competing.

Andy.

So honestly andy do you think as a new rider stopping in a section deserves as good a mark as the next lad who reads the terrain lines his bike up and cleans the section in one flowing ride?????

I have allways felt the skill in getting it right first time is the essance of trials ,and i am not having a go at you,just wondering ..Welcome to the wonderfull sport, keep riding whatever us old gits say

[bigfoot]

I'd be interested to know the number of entries to the SSDT in the last few years when stopping was allowed vs the first few years of no stop. This is one of few trials that attracts riders of all abilities so could be used as a good yard stick.

The SSDT is like all Scottish trials stop = 5. I personnally have never seen a stop = 1 trial. It's always been stopping allowed or stop = 5 in my time in trials in Scotland.

[big john]

I have tended nowadays to sit on the sidelines as it were on these type of threads, that doesn't mean that I don't care or don't have an opinion...far from it. I do however have to be really careful what I post, as my connections with the governing body of motorcycle sport both ACU and SACU are quite well known and anything I say could be misconstrued as being coming directly from "the establishment"!

I will say that I don't (personally) see a bright future for Stop permitted trials, How come... I hear you say?

Well, stop permitted has cause more problems over the years than No-stop ever has. It has conditioned competitors to ride a machine, hop and skip about and effectively fail to negotiate a section and still get away clean. This has made extra work and headaches for clerks of the course and more importantly observers. There is no doubt that these people (the real stars of the sport in my opinion, for without them we have no sport!) have been put under more not less presure since stop permitted became the norm in trials many years ago.

Ok, I admit many of the older generation like no-stop, that was what trials was all about. I believe that we need young people in our sport, but without the older generation (who usually observe, lay out, pick up and do all the other sh!tty jobs that young fellas hate) trials would struggle...badly!

Up here in Jockland we reverted to no-stop rules years ago, for one simple reason, there was only about four riders who could actually ride stop permitted, the others just couldn't do it. Entries were reduced to such an extent that it was rapidly evident to my predecessors at the SACU (John Davies and that Ilk) that within two seasons (or less) trials in Scotland would cease to exist from lack of entries. Death would have been swift, that was a fact!

Personally I actually like to watch some stop permitted trials, the skill of the top riders is a joy to behold, but I don't kid myself that I could ride the obstacles that they do, I'm too long in the tooth and I never had a ounce of their ability in the first place.

I have stated on here before, no-stop is fine, provided that riders follow my "advice" and more importantly that observers stick to their No-stop guns.

I simply say this, "Right Guys, you can go as slow as you like, just don't stop" Ask any of the top riders in Scotland, they all know me by my first name (that's John by the way, not Big!) and they will tell you, that's exactly what I say when they are walking my section. I score what I see and I'm fair, but STOP and I'll dock a five spot on the card, no messing! The same goes for a number of my compadres up here too, some of which are the very strict observers you get at the greatest trial of then all, the SSDT.

The arguement continues....

Big John

(Oh yes, one final point, never argue with an observer... take your FIVE like a man!)

[nigel dabster]

I think that the SSDT is such a unique event that it is not helpful to compare it to all trials. Also from what little I have seen the sections appear to lend themselves to no stop as does the reeth and the scott.

Now in the south Midland centre just north of london, and southern and western centres generally(?) it is definately not the case and this is where one rule for all falls down slightly.

[ishy]

The scoring rules of maintaining forward motion , are a lot harsher on the rider than the current rules that let you correct yourself if offline.

It about sums up how soft it

Edited August 11, 2009 by ishy

[andysv1k]

So honestly andy do you think as a new rider stopping in a section deserves as good a mark as the next lad who reads the terrain lines his bike up and cleans the section in one flowing ride?????

I have allways felt the skill in getting it right first time is the essance of trials ,and i am not having a go at you,just wondering ..Welcome to the wonderfull sport, keep riding whatever us old gits say

Well i guess, firstly, it depends on whether the penalty for stopping is a 1 or a 5, has that been established yet? its probably quite an important factor of the change.

I understand what you are saying about achieving a section straight off without stopping, yes i can see that as a skill, but i can also see that being able to stay stationary and then manipulate the bike around without touching a foot down is also a big skill. Trials is after all a technical sport, it appears that some view stopping and hopping as sort of cheating, but i see it as a great skill. I doubt i will ever be able to do it as im too old to really be able to learn that sort of stuff, but i can learn to stop and balance and i spend a good amount of time practising this. Some people have mentioned about people failing an obstacle but keeping their feet up and moving backwards to try again, this i can understand as maybe pushing it a little, but again keeping control of the bike through a failed attempt then being able to manipulate the bike back to have another go could also be viewed as very skilful.

Again, i can only offer my opinion as a complete novice, so hey what do i know. However if im doing a trial and i know i have to plough on through without stopping (it wont be graceful skill to begin with, more like "watch out, throttle's open and im coming through!") then it will make me think twice about competing, especially if its a situation of clean it or 5 it. Dropping 1 for stopping is not quite so bad as that becomes more of a choice like dabbing, but if its a 5 then you just have to commit or not bother. I like most have to go to work on Monday morning, so cant afford to be off due to unnecessary injury from overstretching my skill level.

Andy.

[bilc0]

The Top Team's own the rule book,have done since the 80's.Our Governing Bodies should have jumped in back then.But they did'nt.If they did would we be enjoying the extremely light and trick looking bike's.

WTC goes No stop next year in a couple of years time it goes back to Stop.And we all follow.