Sense At Last

[dixie]

Lots of intersting points, and some that may be changing my opinion!

I think I still prefer the notion of no-stop, but I can see where the arguments against are coming from. A couple of rhetorical questions though:

*Is it really necessary to have the same rules for WTC level as for everything else? These guys get to practice, so can practice what they want. After all, it's not the same indoor to outdoor and most of us don't aspire to be indoor mentalists! Or do we? Am I speaking too much from my own POV?

*Is it a big problem of we lose a few 5s? This seems to be the main arguement against no-stop. I don't have good enough concentration to do well at low-scoring trials where a careless 3 may put me 5th. Mud-fests where the range is 30-100 gives me a better chance of recovering from a careless one. So what if the nature of the results sheets changes from 1-40 to 30-100. We'll all get used to that, but I bet the ORDER will be pretty similar!

But, I am not against tweaking the rules to let the sport develop and keep current. It comes down to what we all believe is the essence of our sport. Let's leave the clubbies out of this because that area of the sport has (thankfully) remained pretty static for years (I've just come back to the sport after a 13 year lay-off, and trust me, not much has changed!). The real issues are at the sharper end. I agree that a well thought out and executed ride should be rewarded, but there has to be options available to suit rider's styles and strengths and weaknesses. I like Ian's idea about time penalties (although it puts a bit of pressure on observers) as a no-stop ride can be rewarded but is not essential. This can be made to work well in the sarf because NOT ALL sections need to be marked this way; only ones where the terrain is suitable for both approaches.

Tactical dabs have been part of my riding for years (tells you a lot really) and have always been prepared to sacrifice a dab for a big haul where I know my skills are inadequate to make that tight downhill turn. With a time penalty system, you have the option to take a dab, hop and bounce, or commit to a no-stop ride. Needs some working because the no-stop may take longer, but I think this idea of available options is worth exploring. AndySV1K has some reasonable points that as a newbie are very valid; his style and skill level means that by stopping, it reduces the gap between him and the better riders and makes it all viable. Were we to deny him that option, we consign him to the bottom of the results sheet and destroy his enthusiasm; who's to say that as he improves he'll still want to stop?

What we don't want though, is the reqirement to be able to trick ride in order to attempt a section. I would like to think I can attack the hard route in the sarf midlands on those trials where it is not a centre championship trial. Were it to be a hopping fest, I'll buy a twinshock and stick to the easy route. I'm OK with that, but many of us are a bit more aspirational!

I still think if trials are set out with care and for the majority, and marked fairly then no-stop or stop permitted doesn't make a huge difference.

Good discussion though.

Graham

Graham i uderstand a lot of the younger riders think the old rules must be bad just because they are old.. but it in a lot of the older riders opinion was more fun, lots of lads say we need to progress as a sport and change rules style severity , but think of this have the rules of say darts or ten pin bowling changed because people got better at them ??????No why do we keep having to change things for progress ?? the factories wanted there boys to win at all costs and bent the rules to compensate,I am sure trials will benifit from standardisation ,

[bilc0]

I still think if trials are set out with care and for the majority, and marked fairly then no-stop or stop permitted doesn't make a huge difference.

There's not alot of diffrence really.

Problem we have at club level,alot of rider's grade themselve's as Expert's when there really still novice's and so it goes down the line.

It used to take some years to get to Expert status in Trial's,nowaday's people mangage to get in the Expert route within 2 months of joining Trials,i'll have some of what there on please.

[telecat]

That's one of the problems isn't it! Older riders want the "old" No-stop rules, the younger riders are happy with WTC/BTC rules. Yes you may bring in older riders again, but if the sections are too hard they disappear as quickly as they came back. As I stated before at most events in the West Yorkshire section of the Yorkshire centre WTC/BTC rules apply and numbers usually are pretty good.

Here's the rub though. The biggest club entries come for the Novice/Beginners Trials. Even at venues that are generally unpopular they draw big numbers. The riders that do them like the nature of the courses and the variety of the sections. That says where the real growth is. The riders that do them see them as a good day out with no limb threatening bits. When NYL goes along to practice at them they love to watch him trying the "big stuff" and want to see the "tricks", but without feeling the need to do more than be a good motorcycle rider. Trials is a pretty inclusive sport that way.

[trialsnutterman]

While all this debate is going on, one of the best natural Trials in the country has been cancelled due to lack of entries. ( Bootle Presidents) Just what the hell do riders want ?

I never got any entry form through this year so I guess that wouldn't of helped, I entered it last year when it also got cancelled.

[trialsnutterman]

That's one of the problems isn't it! Older riders want the "old" No-stop rules, the younger riders are happy with WTC/BTC rules.

It's not just the old riders though, how many of the riders doing the current British championship are happy? the current mood at these event is not good, I've not enjoyed them and quite a few of the riders I spoke to are the same, something needs to change.

Most of the really young riders will be happy whatever they are riding, as long as they get a ride.

[shercoman2k8]

Maybe this could be a good idea, or it may just be my simple mind?

B Route - Stopping aloud for no more than 5 seconds at a time, got to move say 5 foot before being aloud to stop again.

A Route - Stopping aloud for no more than 5 seconds at a time, got to move say 10 foot before being aloud to stop again.

World level - Stopping aloud for no more than 5 or 10 seconds, three times in any one section.

Things like the SSDT and Scott use A route rules?

Instead of set distances, maybe got to move atleast two marker cards or something? Then it could vary depending on the section severity.

Maybe if its a Very large obstacle, or something very tricky, use a different coloured section marker, or have a spot on it to allow stopping in this zone.

Just my two cents.

Jamie

[atomant]

Lets look at this a different way - Currently, all the top riders have come up from the cycle trials route ( in one form or another) and Motorcycle trials is the natural extension of that. All current youth and junior riders will no doubt have a Monty or something similar and will be learning trick stuff that easily progress into MC trials . this system has around 15 years of riders in it..

So.... if you now look at the top riders riding non stop rules and look back, there will probably need to be a shift from cyclo trials as the breeding ground to possibly mountain biking or downhill where balance at speed is required. Also, greater levels of fitness ( not being able to stop in a section and balance taking a quick breather). There will be a lot of mountain bike riders who haven't seen the sport before looking at current traditional non stop sections and think maybe I could do that. Watch Toni Bou and they would show respect then say sod that!

So what happens to the 15 years of cyclo trials riders in the queue? They will have to adapt and adapt fast (which I am sure they will)

I believe there is only one group of people we need to look at for this to be a success! They are the people who will be plotting the sections. They get it right and it could be fantastic.

In the past I was an advocate of the current WTC rules but after watching a few of the world rounds, it got quite boring to be honest. I am now a convert to non stop as a way forward simply because it opens up the field to many more atheletes outside the sport who could adapt to it.

It might even get me back on a bike too

[trialsnutterman]

In the past I was an advocate of the current WTC rules but after watching a few of the world rounds, it got quite boring to be honest. I am now a convert to non stop as a way forward simply because it opens up the field to many more atheletes outside the sport who could adapt to it.

Blimey I never expected that from you! Might be the first time I read something you've wrote and agreed. Keep it up.

[atomant]

Blimey I never expected that from you! Might be the first time I read something you've wrote and agreed. Keep it up.

*is wondering whether this is a good thing*

[ishy]

Atom like your idea and it would be nice to watch,but why is everone obsessed with making events PAY and drawing huge crowds ,money again its not a buisness its a sport ,when people want to make a sport pay its game over for the ordinary guy...

I got a free entry once, cos I marked out the trial and did the entries are there some daft buggers still thinking they can mek owt at this job.

[slapshot 3]

I love this old chestnut and it's always something that gets folks blood boiling....fantastic

Okay fatboy's tuppenceworth (edit....maybe 50p):

To stop or not to stop, that is the question, whether tis nobler to think that no-stop will bring riders back to the fold or to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous humiliation if the FIM/ACU etc etc don't do something to dig the sport out of its mess.

Seriously, someone, somewhere has to make a stand about this. How does a championship class of ten riders make sense? How does running 5 different routes at national level make sense?

Stop/No-Stop: I'm firmly in the No-Stop category and grew up in the sport as no-stop, through the start of the "stop" rules and all the buggering about there was with them. Crunch is we have a Stop rule now that is almost decipherable and workable however I still find it boring. A world trial is an amazing spectacle but the sections bore the hell out of me after the first few riders are through, it was like that few years back, Germany in 95 was the end for me, brilliant as it was 8 minutes to ride a section is a joke. Granted there was another "tweak" the following week but it killed wtc for me. What I do remember is the few worlds that I saw as a kid, big sections but ones you could have a big blast at, massive third and fourth gear climbs, amazing to watch, Vesty, Schrieber, Martin Lampkin moving into the next generation of Burgat, Michaud and Lejeune, then as the next generation of Tarres etc etc etc came in the rules really started going silly. It will always be no stop for me. I think that it might tease more riders out, I don't think that any solution will work overnight it has to be worked at, make the change and encourage riders and the size of entries will rise eventually.

Multiple routes works no matter what rules people want to use, if it's done properly. We had the whinging this year after the changes in the Scottish Champs, but by god it worked over 100 entries for the first round and from what I've been told entries are still better. BUT what is shown is that two other factors play a big role in entries, where the trial is and how many are willing to travel to it and whether the riders know the trial will be sensible. Stevenston round this weekend, be interesting to see what happens as a comparison to the Bon Accord round.

Observing at any level is simple as long the observer knows and understands the rules and applies them consistently. After that it's up to CoC's and clubs to support the observers if something goes pearshaped.

The SSDT: It is the best barometer of our sport, every change has been reflected in the six days in some way. As the rules and sections changed towards stop format to suit the worlds best riders who rode year in year out then the numbers started to fall as the multitude of everyday riders fell away because they couldn't handle it anymore. SSDT changes format, HL has nightmares and her postie a heart attack every December as the entries flood in. The recovery of the SSDT is down to no stop I think everyone agrees with that, the rest of the sport would follow eventually.

Use it as a world round, fantastic, bring the big riders back but change practically nothing. Think about this year, Doug and Wiggy, 1 mark in the end and lets be honest how many marks does it take to create a separation, winner on 1, next guy on 2, next guy on 3 etc etc etc.

I'm all for the big trials in the nations being world rounds, I think it would be a proper test, none of the same old predictable big steps, dry rocks and more and more man made hazards every year. The worlds best rider is the man who can adapt to whats thrown at him best they can all adapt to something when it the same thing every round. The Scottish and the Scott are two perfect examples of a test, what do the other countries have to offer?

Well done to the ACU for changing the Novogar, I sincerely hope it's successful, I sincerely hope the rest of the sport follows suit.......soon!!

[ishy]

It's not hard to mark out an event for the majority of riders, just sensible straight forward sections, the sharp end may moan about it being too easy, but attendance at many trials grows from experience riders have in years past or word of mouth from riders who tell their mates it's a cracking event.

Deosn't really matter what the rules are if the C of C stop trying to please the few and plan a course that can be ridden under any set of rules, bigger entries are worth a lot more than the odd big name.

[dixie]

I also remember the old sections a nationals,some big steps where still included but it was not dangerous,all the next riders mates would be heckeling as he started the sectiod and a big cheer would go up if he cleaned it ,or an even bigger cheer if he got a 5, after a big off the chap would pull his bike out of the mud and carry on ,not go to hospital, No one is denying the hotties have massive skill ,but there has to be a place for it (indoor trials for the tricks,they have a world champs allready) out doors for a more traditional days sport.

Again a lot of the reason for more difficult sections was bike developement,again driven by the manufactures,this years must have ..my father had his trials bike for nearly ten years and it was still competitve.

Imagine this ,a trials bike with a fuel tank (no problems at the scottish,and a seat)????? Thats going a bit far i know but it was and still could be a massive sport...

[andat]

I also remember the old sections a nationals,some big steps where still included but it was not dangerous,all the next riders mates would be heckeling as he started the sectiod and a big cheer would go up if he cleaned it ,or an even bigger cheer if he got a 5, after a big off the chap would pull his bike out of the mud and carry on ,not go to hospital, No one is denying the hotties have massive skill ,but there has to be a place for it (indoor trials for the tricks,they have a world champs allready) out doors for a more traditional days sport.

Again a lot of the reason for more difficult sections was bike developement,again driven by the manufactures,this years must have ..my father had his trials bike for nearly ten years and it was still competitve.

Imagine this ,a trials bike with a fuel tank (no problems at the scottish,and a seat)????? Thats going a bit far i know but it was and still could be a massive sport...

You could sort it all out in one fell swoop by putting a minimum weight limit on the bikes of 100kg at WTC level (max capacity 350cc), with compulsory seat and 10 litre fuel tank. No need for exotic materials.... (death of titty pipes that cost an arm and a leg and ding when they see their first rock)Try hopping one of them about all day!!!!

[beatabeta]

You could sort it all out in one fell swoop by putting a minimum weight limit on the bikes of 100kg at WTC level (max capacity 350cc), with compulsory seat and 10 litre fuel tank. No need for exotic materials.... (death of titty pipes that cost an arm and a leg and ding when they see their first rock)Try hopping one of them about all day!!!!

Says the man with the lightest production trials bike