Sense At Last

[mickwren]

I have replied to JD with my view on this subject. The one thing that I cannot let go unchallenged is the SCOTT TRIAL argument. The Scott has returned to the excellent event it always used to be. The reason for this return to the top of the trials ladder is NOT because it went "no stop" and magically got better, it has got better because a group of devoted, dedicated,hard working trials fanatics ( Richmond Motor Club) have devoted hours of their time and energy into making it better. I believe it is an insult to their efforts to say that "no stop" is responsible for this upturn in fortunes.

Further to this I also believe this is a typical example of the myth that has been put into plece about "no stop" events. The fact is the SCOTT might claim to be "no stop" but there is no way it could ever be run in true "no stop" style, the very nature of the SCOTT doesn't alow this to happen. If there is more than one bike in a section at one time and somebody falls off, the next one may have to balance till the section clears.

This sums up the "no stop" argument for me, they like the idea that things will be easier under these rules, but they don't want to be given a five for stopping, its called having your cake and eating it.

Good luck to all involved in the SCOTT this year

Edited August 14, 2009 by mickwren

[perce]

I have replied to JD with my view on this subject. The one thing that I cannot let go unchallenged is the SCOTT TRIAL argument. The Scott has returned to the excellent event it always used to be. The reason for this return to the top of the trials ladder is NOT because it went "no stop" and magically got better, it has got better because a group of devoted, dedicated,hard working trials fanatics ( Richmond Motor Club) have devoted hours of their time and energy into making it better. I believe it is an insult to their efforts to say that "no stop" is responsible for this upturn in fortunes.

Further to this I also believe this is a typical example of the myth that has been put into plece about "no stop" events. The fact is the SCOTT might claim to be "no stop" but there is no way it could ever be run in true "no stop" style, the very nature of the SCOTT doesn't alow this to happen. If there is more than one bike in a section at one time and somebody falls off, the next one may have to balance till the section clears.

This sums up the "no stop" argument for me, they like the idea that things will be easier under these rules, but they don't want to be given a five for stopping, its called having your cake and eating it.

Good luck to all involved in the SCOTT this year

It's a bit lost with the mists of time but this is how I remember the change from Stop allowed to Stop = 5. I think we went back to No Stop rules prior to the SSDT doing so. The simple problem was that the good riders have the ability to stop & have a look midway up the sections. Therefore sections were being marked out harder, it didn't bother the stars but the average lads were struggling. Marking the Scott out is a big balancing act, we've got to give all the 200 punters their enjoyment, this varies from simply setting off from the start field to winning the event. The real balancing act though is to mark a Trial out that'll get a result amongst the good lads & will also allow the serious triers the chance of a Finishers Certificate, get this wrong & it's good chance the entry level will go down. The rules aren't the only reason for RMC having success with the Scott but I certainly think they have helped.

Mick, I think you've been Steward often enough by now that you should have read the rules. The jist is if you enter a section with somebody else in it, it's your problem & if you stop the Observer should give you a 5. The other side of this is for the Scott we have probably 300+ on the day helpers many of these only attend one trial a year. As Observing is one job I wont do, I'll leave it to the man / woman with the pencil to take the score.

[beatabeta]

Obviously one persons opinion will never count for jack (especially with the ACU)

BUT if UK trials does go down the stop = 5 rule then I will definitely 100% stop riding trials for the forseeable future. I would think that certainly mant others may do the same

If it goes stop = 1 rule I will continue riding and again I would expect 99.9% of riders would do also.

I have to agree with Dabster (Again - I must be getting old and sadistic ) this change will not make anyone decide to take trials up.

As someone else mentioned clubs have money in their coffers, it must be up to local clubs promoting in local area with centre support and ACU (god help us) promoting (yea right) on a national level.

Anyway, when is this change happening? and does anyone know what rule is being enforced?

[tricky dicky]

I agree that the change to non stop in the Scott and SSDT isnt the only reason why the events are such a success, a lot has to be said for the hard work of the organising teams. I do think that the change to non stop has helped the events grow into the spectator friendly events that they are now. I agree witht the comment made that world rounds are boring after the first few riders have had a go. Most people that dont ride could go to the Scott or the SSDT and think " I could have a go at that" whereas at a world round they would obviously think its mighty impressive but then think "no chance I could do that". I know that the sections are better suited for the rules in the SSDT and Scott but in normal trials it is far harder to ride a section clean for the hoppers when the rules are no stop. The trouble is that people seem scared to lose marks for some reason. In winter when in my opinion is the best time for trials, tight turns are not needed because its usually that wet that riding in a straight line is hard enough. I had to learn to ride non stop when the rules changed in 98 and it took time. Why does everybody want everything on a plate without trying it? I really dont get that at all. A suggestion to all the people who are for the hopping rule is to mark your usual practise sections out then try them non stop. I bet that most of them can be done non stop and if they cant then widen them up slightly and I bet that it doesnt take much for them to be done non stop. Just a suggestion!

[nigel dabster]

Now that is a point,Imagine if the centres each had a permanent off road trials training area so everone could practice,and new comers could mingle and learn,the politicians allwasys tell us as a nation we are getting un fit but dont let you do anything about it,

I know when the european champs started you could have works riders from different teams sharing a lift to a trial ,bikes in bits in the back of ordinary cars ,In my oppinion all adding to the fun,when people try to run sport as a buisness it goes tits up..

That may well be the case but without Top Trial Team (a buisness) Michael Brown Alexz Wigg and jack Challoner may not have a ride in europe at all.

As a point of interest how many euro and wtc's have you seen recently?

[ishy]

Obviously one persons opinion will never count for jack (especially with the ACU)

BUT if UK trials does go down the stop = 5 rule then I will definitely 100% stop riding trials for the forseeable future. I would think that certainly mant others may do the same

?

I would think the majority of club riders have gone through many rule changes and although not liked some of the changes have stuck with it because they like the sport and people that go along with it.

To say you would stop riding trials if they do change the rules to full no stop is a bit soft in my book.

When Doug started riding the full world championship series, the FIM changed the rules every year, somtimes twice, the good ones adapt and get on with it.

[bilc0]

This is the part im not getting.Club's already have the option if they want to run complete Non Stop or Stop or both,i guess the problem is if the club chose one side they lose the other side.

What the FIM decide here is all about the WTC and nothing else.

If WTC go Non Stop will we all follow it around the world??

[mickwren]

Obviously one persons opinion will never count for jack (especially with the ACU)

BUT if UK trials does go down the stop = 5 rule then I will definitely 100% stop riding trials for the forseeable future. I would think that certainly mant others may do the same

If it goes stop = 1 rule I will continue riding and again I would expect 99.9% of riders would do also.

I have to agree with Dabster (Again - I must be getting old and sadistic ) this change will not make anyone decide to take trials up.

As someone else mentioned clubs have money in their coffers, it must be up to local clubs promoting in local area with centre support and ACU (god help us) promoting (yea right) on a national level.

Anyway, when is this change happening? and does anyone know what rule is being enforced?

Thanks for the ACU kicking. You might like to know that when John Collins went to Geneva to the FIM meeting which JD was so peeved about,he spoke to delegates from Spain, France, Italyand Norway among others, and the grass roots sport is dieing in some of these countries. Entries in most ACU classes have actually gone up this year, we must be doing something right

[john collins]

As the only person from the UK who actually attended the meeting in Geneva where proposals for future were actullay discussed - apart form reporting to the ACU Trials & Enduro Commitee you will notice I have not been involved in any discussions as to date - but have read with interest most of the posts - obviously there are differing views - and this is to be expected

There are quite a few important points - the most important being that it will now be the FIM that will decide the way World Trials will be marked in 2010. That is their responsibility - and that is how should be

As regards to ACU - as BettaBeta seems to take delight in talking through his rear end - perhaps before I make any further comments - and I re- state that I was there and know exactly what is what - I would ask him to explain to me - just a few simple points

What has he ever organided?

What has he ever done that can be regarded as a benefit for the sport ?

How often does he ride and in what?

What involvement doers he have in his local Club?

Once I have some answers to those questions - I will without delay give the readers of TC an accurate account of what exactly is what

John Collins ( like Mick Wren - not ashamed to use my name)

[copemech]

Going back to our National events whilst running no stop, which I did act at as observer, I can recall being told in the observers meeting such statements in observer meeting as "we do not want any "Hitler" observers, give them a break, count "one' onethousand " before you bust any on a 5 for a stop! OK, judging my first National, what am I supposed to make of all this? Years later I can understand better, yet the grey area still exhists! Add, personally, I always reverted back to the spirit of the rules and trials in general. So fair to all, screw the written letter if it all! Protest that! How I felt was done, no less, no more. Same for all as much as could be. I hate it as a scorer!

Things are much more clear in stop allowed, dab or not, not backwards! Even the backwards toward the course has been an issue recently it seems.

I personally have been called for much less in the no stop, ok , fair is fair, still sucked for a hesitation. Point being , the entire concept of no stop can be totally up to interpretation and attention span of what may be an inexperienced or overzealous observer. All good to an extent, as an observer, I need to hand out a few points here!!!!!!!!!!

To be honest, I could really burst the bubbles of some, many of which I do not want to do, such as the clubmen and new riders, as it can be a great put off . Even the masters can falter, so what, bust their ass? 1 or 5? Make my day!!!!!! As an observer, I can bust balls , no problem, state your game!!!!!!!!

[bigfoot]

... if UK trials does go down the stop = 5 rule then I will definitely 100% stop riding trials for the forseeable future. I would think that certainly mant others may do the same

This doesn't say much about your commitment to the sport.

JC's challenged you. The only way now to prove your not soft like Ishy says is answer the man's questions.

[baldilocks]

There has been some concern expressed at the potential risk of injury from attempting to ride over a log or step without stopping before hand.

One of the benefits of no stop for me is that you dont need the obstacles to be as big to take marks off riders as they have to ride without pausing to compose themselves or line themselves up.

A stop permitted section can work like this

The section involves a tight turn followed by a five foot step , lots of people pull up, balance, check the catcher is in the right place, rev the bike, wave a leg, rev the bike again, receive some advice (bend your legs ?) and then fail. While this is all happening the the queue grows ever longer, the observer nods off and its still raining.

3 of the local good riders have quick look at the step and clean it no problem.

A No Stop section could work like this

The section involves a tight turn followed by a two foot step , lots of people ride around the turn and take a dab or two to on top of the smaller step. There is a shorter queue, the observer doesnt nod off, nobody needs a catcher and the majority get through the section.

This is why I like no stop trials.

Despite the rain the 3 good riders still clean it as the good riders often dont lose marks on steps but people insist on putting them in which demoralizes everybody else . As somebody referred to earlier even at BTC level a trial can be lost on a straighforward section rather than a step.

Steps rarely take marks off the top riders in local trials.

If people are going to pack trials in because they cant have the rules they like can I suggest we chip in and buy them a dummy to replace the one they have spat out ? This could be their parting gift from the sport.

Instead of spitting your dummy out try it first, the people who like no stop have been riding stop permitted for 25 years without spitting their dummys out.

[billycraig]

There has been some concern expressed at the potential risk of injury from attempting to ride over a log or step without stopping before hand.

One of the benefits of no stop for me is that you dont need the obstacles to be as big to take marks off riders as they have to ride without pausing to compose themselves or line themselves up.

I rode a no stop trial recently that had a 2 or 3 ft step at the end of a rocky stream. On one go I didn't get the run up right and got my five as I knew I hadn't got the drive to get up it. I had another look at the line. Unluckily this was the same time as a rider got of line but went for it anyway. The end result was I got hit by a flying bike and ended up getting dragged down the section. The section was ridable no stop as I did it twice myself. For me sat here with a torn clothes, fractured rib, cuts all over me and deep purple bruising I wonder if I'd still have a go anyway knowing I was way of line. The answer is yes I possibly would as I did it a while ago in a big no stop trial. I looped the bike and sent it towards various spectators. Given the option to take the one for a stop I'd of composed myself and made a better judgement (jack it in) or a better attempt. I'm fairly certain that in the same trial under stop = 1 or stop rules the rider that took me out would of stopped and had a more composed go. The skill is in keeping forward motion, but bikes flying all over the shop because we've had a go anyway worries me a little especially down the classes.

By the way I know this is a freak one off (hopefully) accident but the worse rider we are, the slower we make decisions. So I can completely understand a beginner being daunted by the need to keep moving at all costs rather than have a momentary pause.

Just like last time I'll ride whatever the rules as I love trials but being from a biketrial background I'll always love the agility of that style.

[dixie]

That may well be the case but without Top Trial Team (a buisness) Michael Brown Alexz Wigg and jack Challoner may not have a ride in europe at all.

As a point of interest how many euro and wtc's have you seen recently?

Stopped going when you had to start paying....probably wales world round at merthyr.late eightys early ninetys

[dixie]

That may well be the case but without Top Trial Team (a buisness) Michael Brown Alexz Wigg and jack Challoner may not have a ride in europe at all.

As a point of interest how many euro and wtc's have you seen recently?

stopped going when you had to start paying to watch,wales round at myther i think,I agree with your statement about the top trial boys,but it would have been even nicer if it was joe bloggs and all his mates had the chance to ride aswel, I think exactly what we are talking about ,the privaleged few have the money or backing to ride everone else has to lump it