Sense At Last

[dixie]

I think this post has been very interesting in the whole and I wouldn't want to see it closed either but the name calling and baiting should be cut back.

Interestingly I'd mark Dixie on a three so far a few others on one or two but no one has stopped yet so even in this very tough section no fives. Must be a well laid out post.

Nice one bigfoot but put me down for a five ,its to hard for me all this cheating modern stuff, i am off to the pub

[mattv6]

Has any one thought of how difficult the new rule changes will be for observers. I currently see a number of disputes at to if someone rolled backwards, and the varying degrees of strictness of observers but now with non stop it is going to only get much much worse...and this especially counts and club level and even more for beginners...when the get stuck going over a slipery log or up a bank, and have to have a push over it is more often than not they will stop for a moment...not intentionally but none the less a stop...so it's a 5. I think this will discorage new riders, especiall young ones and most of all will make observing at all levels of the sport much more difficult.

I know in our area it is already difficult to get observers, make their job even more difficult and sometimes controversial and we'll all end up having to observe each other!

[slapshot 3]

Has any one thought of how difficult the new rule changes will be for observers. I currently see a number of disputes at to if someone rolled backwards, and the varying degrees of strictness of observers but now with non stop it is going to only get much much worse...and this especially counts and club level and even more for beginners...when the get stuck going over a slipery log or up a bank, and have to have a push over it is more often than not they will stop for a moment...not intentionally but none the less a stop...so it's a 5. I think this will discorage new riders, especiall young ones and most of all will make observing at all levels of the sport much more difficult.

I know in our area it is already difficult to get observers, make their job even more difficult and sometimes controversial and we'll all end up having to observe each other!

It's even more difficult form many observers to fathom out the stop rules as they are now. I had one rider on Sunday who bitched about a 5 I docked him. No Stop rules he's stationary/rolling slightly back but has stopped all forward motion, that's a 5. There are too many diiferent rules that triders and observers are confused, going back to one single rule might just resolve that.

[pedronicman]

Some people seem to think that making trials no stop will make the sections easy , but if thats the case do

these poeple think that all trials from local level through to national and then world championship in the pre

hop era were also 'easy' years ago- i dont think they were.

What people seem to forget is you can still have a hard section/trial without big steps etc , chuck in a few cambers, roots

and some mud , and you will notice that the hip hob brigade wont know what going on.

The need for big stuff to ride up has only come about by the evolution of trials bikes that can go up anything,

people think they have to ride like Toni Bou all the time and that ALL sections should be like this, whats

wrong with a bit of variety?

Some kind of change is needed soon , or else the current world round circus of 9 riders will eventually be zero.

Obviously this is my own opinion , and some people will like slag me off......

[ishy]

I think in the end it comes down to how the course is laid out in the first place, sections can be made tight enough to favor the trick rider and punish the more traditional style rider, but if laid out in a way that favors the traditional style rider where the corners can be turned on full lock and steps have a reasonable run up to them, riding styles would adapt more to no stop because momentum is an asset in trials.

Up to the late eighties, all the trials I rode in the UK only had one line for the three classes, Novice, intermediate and expert, scores where quite high for the majority of riders in the bigger event's, but the high scores never seemed to bother the riders and the sections for the most part were very straight forward, clubs also ran club event's for Novice and Intermediate riders still only the one line but it seemed to work well.

Since then extra lines have been added to events, and even extra classes to try keep all the classes of riders happy, even the scores for those classes only seem a fraction of what they used to be when all rode the same line, the more choices that have been added the more riders seem to complain.

Isn't it about time we cut all the crap, and stopped trying to keep every bugger that has a moan happy, make the trial for the target entry, if you want to have a large entry of clubby riders, then cater for them, if you want six stars to show up, cater for them, the scoring rules don't make that big a difference, it's the event itself that gets riders coming back if the enjoy it, or not if they don't.

On the world championship front, I think the domestic championships should be qualifiers for a world championship run over a few days towards the end of the year, then like the TDN countries with less participation and lower quality of rider could go for a B class award, I think more would attend if they only had to pay for one trip a year.

Edited August 18, 2009 by ishy

[the addict]

Some great points there Ishy i cant remember a time when there was only one route but two was the norm around the Midland Centre when I was a teenager. Trouble is these days the gap between a novice and an expert or Inter is massive even at local club level, I,m not sure why, maybe the bikes and how they ride but long gone are the days of a single route at a club trial where the majority of riders ride. Earl Shilton has four routes and full in each every trial, speaking to some of the white route riders (4th) the jump to the green route (3rd) is huge let alone attempting anything that would take a single dab of an expert. Yes the sections can be made more rider friendly (safer) with horrible cambers etc but the modern trials bike has developed over many years to the extremely light and agile tool it is now, designed to go up and over just about anything.

Edited August 18, 2009 by The Addict

[ishy]

I have learned to milk the current rules for all they are worth, in it's a lot easier to ride under stop allowed, in a nadgery rocky section nothing big or dangerous I can get a bit wrong, stop put my foot down, correct my bike and get out for a dab, if the rules had been no stop it would probably been two or three.

My idea of a good section is one that takes marks of the majority of riders but fives very few, yet still takes a good ride to clean it.

The trials marshal are now faced with how to take marks off riders that can hop any corner and get up many steps with no run at all, they do so by making the section very tight and big.

My question is, if points can be gleaned by making it nadgery and no stop, what is the point of scaring riders away by making it tight and big ?.

From an observing point, I don't buy that it's harder to score no stop than stop allowed, and in my experience very few give you a five for a feet up hesitation or a bit of bounce.

The machines evolved around the type of section they needed to be ridden in, but I dare bet the number of sales is way down from when the machines could also get a lot greater distance on a tank of fuel, sported a seat, and an actual rear mudguard that kept mud off you, those same machines also sold to other off road riders because they were capable of going places big bikes couldn't go.

Would a minimum seat height and fuel capacity detract so much from what the bikes can already do, the majority of trials riders don

[zippy]

This may be a mistake but.......I will toss in my opinion here as well as the "Spin Off" topic.

If you stop and balance no foul= takes skill

If you stop and support bike with foot = 5 you are now a kickstand no skill

If you want to ride no stop and motor on through the section with out putting a foot down so be it, but if I want to stop balance hop around like a jack rabbit on crack and not put my foot down in the same route as you then we should both be given a clean. Just using different techniques.

Just my opinion.

Or is it some of the "older" guys don't want to move down a class and be in a "intermediate" class and not "Expert" class like they used to be. Because the progression of bikes and techniques lends for the hopping and huge obstacles that some of us (Yep me too) "older" guys don't do well?

That statement should stir some emotion. mad.gif

I did ride in the late 70's early 80's TY80 and TY175 basically no stop/ don't touch clutch. But I like the hoppy hoppy bouncy bouncy stuff of current trials. But I may be in the minority.

And being from the States I may have a totally different view than those from UK, Also unfamiliar with Trials scene in UK.

Quick idea what rules I personally think trials should have as pertaining to control of the motorcycle.

Foot down while moving = 1

Foot down a second time = 2

Foot down a third or more times = 3

The following are failures = 5

Foot down while stopped

Traveling in reverse/backwards (makes it so there is only 1 attempt at obstacle)

Riding out of bounds

Missing a marker

Dislodging a marker

End of handlebar touches ground

Crossing one's own path. (Only takes one tire to cross)

The previous is not all inclusive but the major points.

In MOTA we have 5 or 6 different lines in each section. Easiest line wide open, Hardest line tight hoppy hoppy stuff.

All those "Traditional" no stop riders find the class that suits their ability best. The biggest hit is to the ego, whereas 20 yrs ago that same section was labeled "Expert" and now it is labeled "Intermediate" Because the bikes, technology and abilities of younger riders lends to the tight hoppy big steps. But I agree that there needs to be a variety I.E. great traction, super tight corners, and big steps. then next section a little more open with mud and slippy smaller steps. Then you are testing control of the bike under majority of conditions and the best "All Around" rider will win.

Just the opinion of a 36 yr old fat ass that tries to hop and hit biggish steps. But also likes the slippy stuff that takes throttle control.

[trialsnutterman]

If you stop and support bike with foot = 5 you are now a kickstand no skill

The UK had this rule a while back but I think you where allowed to hop backwards as well, I can see it merits and it disadvantages, I can remember quite a few people having arguments over whether it was a stationary dab or not.

Your right though stood still with your foot down takes zero skill, it's boring to watch and it causes unnecessary delay in sections.

[cubby]

Its quite funny reading this thread as through many of the current posts it is clear that there is so much ambiguity about what the current rules are, what they were and what they might be in the future.

I think this identifies the problem and it has been touched on by lots of people - its a simple sport, it needs simple rules, and an education process for riders and observers.

My point of view, I find it easier to ride under the stop allowed rules and it does keep your score down, but in my opinion the idea of stopping mid way through a section is b**lsh*t. But is suits some. Look back at what the sport is all about, how it was invented etc. (I;m just over 30 so not an old fart either )

It is sooooooo satisfying when you ride a hard section clean and without stopping, it is a good feeling.

And the argument that it will put off new riders - erm don't think so. Yes a few boys might not like it, but it will open up the sport to so many more that any potential loss would be well and truly outweighed!!

[atomant]

Isn't it about time we cut all the crap, and stopped trying to keep every bugger that has a moan happy, make the trial for the target entry, if you want to have a large entry of clubby riders, then cater for them, if you want six stars to show up, cater for them, the scoring rules don't make that big a difference, it's the event itself that gets riders coming back if the enjoy it, or not if they don't.

This was the point I was making earlier - run your trials for the punters enjoyment and all is well - its as simple as that

[bilc0]

its a simple sport, it needs simple rules,

Problem is your not riding simple bike's.

Go back to making the bike's big and heavy with twinshock's,then your get your simple rule's/simple sport back.

Don't forget thing's went off track in the 80's and have been ever since,that's alot of years we have to put right,i say it's not possible.

[cubby]

Mmmmm, the bikes are advanced, relative to the bikes from the 60's, but it isn't a realistic argument to use that just because the rules state non-stop that we all need to use 200kg lumps. The bikes have developed as they are due to advances in technology generally, advances in manufacturing techniques, new materials being available, AND the rules of the sport, not simply because of them.

It could be argued how much better can the bikes get? But they will, and if you compare bikes from 20 years ago, 1989 in terms of the technology they actually are amazingly similar, think Aprillia Climbers, Beta Zero etc. Watercooled, mono susp, disc brakes, only difference now is the level of refinement. If th rules change, then a whole new phase of development will happen and the process will continue.

Still amazed at how many people contributing to the discussion aren't clear on firstly the rules they are currently riding under, and then also what non-stop means, surely the clue is in the name .

Oh, Manx Two Day next Weekend, has been run to Non-stop rules for at least the past 10 years, and exactly the same as the Scottish, entry levels dropped off to around 180 or so before the introduction of Non-stop, and then year on year since we have been full to the 275 capacity within a week of the entries opening - simples! And each year there are up to 50 newcomers, so the argument about young riders not wanting to ride doesn't really stack up , sorry!

[nigel dabster]

Mmmmm, the bikes are advanced, relative to the bikes from the 60's, but it isn't a realistic argument to use that just because the rules state non-stop that we all need to use 200kg lumps. The bikes have developed as they are due to advances in technology generally, advances in manufacturing techniques, new materials being available, AND the rules of the sport, not simply because of them.

It could be argued how much better can the bikes get? But they will, and if you compare bikes from 20 years ago, 1989 in terms of the technology they actually are amazingly similar, think Aprillia Climbers, Beta Zero etc. Watercooled, mono susp, disc brakes, only difference now is the level of refinement. If th rules change, then a whole new phase of development will happen and the process will continue.

Still amazed at how many people contributing to the discussion aren't clear on firstly the rules they are currently riding under, and then also what non-stop means, surely the clue is in the name .

Oh, Manx Two Day next Weekend, has been run to Non-stop rules for at least the past 10 years, and exactly the same as the Scottish, entry levels dropped off to around 180 or so before the introduction of Non-stop, and then year on year since we have been full to the 275 capacity within a week of the entries opening - simples! And each year there are up to 50 newcomers, so the argument about young riders not wanting to ride doesn't really stack up , sorry!

Take a straw poll and how many riders are under 30 would you say?

[ishy]

I was just wondering today how many years has Trotters and witches burn been used in the SSDT, many good riders would both loose marks and clean the sections 25 years ago on twin shockers, yet they still do today on the modern bikes.