Sense At Last

[atomant]

I have found this thread interesting reading all the posts.

One thing that strikes me is that what has happened here is simply a change BACK to the rules of olden days! My view is simple - this is shortsighted in the least (but its a step in the right direction ... probably). You only need to read some other threads on here and see whats happening in other MC sports to see what people are watching and what is pulling the crowds.

With established MC genres like MX & Enduro already doing well, we are now seeing the rise of EnduroCross gaining popularity in the states - X Games as well - Massive event.. and then you look at trials? despite the awesome skill - nowhere to be seen!

Do people honestly think just going back to NON STOP rules will fix this?

Now I am trying to imagine what a NON-STOP section would look like for these top boys and with basically a high percentage of the world sections I have seen being outdoor indoor sections, then most of them would have to be scrapped.

Now what I would propose ( at least at the top level) is to add the features of why some of the other sports are doing so well, and that is speed! trials is simply far too slow! ( you may say thats the idea but in this post im talking about ways to grow the sport)

The section design would be critical I'm not suggesting enduro speeds but certainly more like flat out in 3rd type of thing. Seeing highly skillfull riders control the bikes at speed whilst negotiating tough obstacles would definately be a big draw I would suggest.

Maybe it could be scored on time in and out the section with a combination of dabs? or maybe many other ways.

Radical but hey, thats me

Edited August 11, 2009 by AtomAnt

[the addict]

I,ve ridden plenty of non stop trials up north and enjoy them alot, the lay of the land lends itself to this type of rule, down here as Andrew said things are a little more difficult to say the least. You need much more open sections which will mean longer sections taking up what little bit of land is left on alot of our already small southern venues, to be honest I cant wait to ride the first non stop trial down this way to see what the course setters come up with

[the addict]

I,ve got to admit I like Ians idea not as progression of the sport but as different type of event on their own, be a great laugh. Could work with one route say the B route so every one could have a go, timed start to end, 1 second added for every dab even if 30 dabs, make it easy enough so everyone gets through and a couple of other lines to save time but risk a few dabs

Edited August 11, 2009 by The Addict

[beatabeta]

Dropping 1 for stopping is not quite so bad as that becomes more of a choice like dabbing, but if its a 5 then you just have to commit or not bother. I like most have to go to work on Monday morning, so cant afford to be off due to unnecessary injury from overstretching my skill level.

Andy.

Andy totally agree with you on this. If the rule of

stop = 1 is in place this is OK, it is a choice you would make as a rider and no one could argue the case with observer.

If it is this weird North Yorkshire and above (so it appears) rule of

stop = 5 then this is not a choice you can make and effectively reduces trials not to a skill where the best rider wins but the person who keeps moving wins.

OK the above is a very extreme scenario but is potentially the situation you could get in some trials.

Like you say you either fully commit and 'possibly' risk injury and time off work or not bother - how anyone can agree with this is beyond me especially the older riders who I guess (in my non medical opinion) could be more likely to pick up a worse injury or take longer to heal. All I can think is that the older riders ride (in the main) the clubmen sections where the risk of a larger scale acciddent is less.

And yes I am aware that 1) some younger riders are OK with non stop and 2) some very very good over 40's riders ride at an outstandingly high level

The other points that I feel are being missed are that if you have the choice how you ride it does not mean that the rider that can stop and hop will win a club / national / BTC or WTC event. I can stop and hop with relative ease but I dont often win a trial and am often beaten by some of the afore mentioned brilliant over 40's riders, many of whom ride non stop (but can trick ride).

The other thing is that the course organiser / clerk of the course does not have to lay a 'stop permitted' trial out in the way where you have to stop to get through every section.

I ride in trials where you are allowed to stop but this does not mean I stop, balance, hop and mess about in each section. If a section can be ridden without stopping the majority of riders will ride it that way. However as I mentioned before if halfway through a section a rider stops, looks where he/she is going then set off again why is that a 5?? Have they gained a huge advantage by briefly stopping to see where they go? NO

As it stands everyone should be relatively happy that they can choose how they ride a section. If a turn is put in a section whereby it is easier to stop, hop then go and people do this and get a zero then whats the problem? I'm pretty sure a good non stop rider can ride this in their chosen method. Worst case you have a dab, bring the bike around and carry on - so 1 point lost, not 5 points

With the stop rules in place no one starts giving a 5 to the riders that ride no stop through a section where 90% stop, hop and go so why punish riders that ride the way they want to?.

Seems mental to me and obviously divides everyone's opinion.

Cant see how risking losing riders that already ride and enjoy trials is good for anyone involved in the sport. Like Dabster said, introducing no stop is not suddenly going to make thousands of people say 'ohh goofy gum drops, you can stop in trials now, I might take it up'

[telecat]

I'll re-iterate my previous remarks that both Versions of the rules work well when the course is setup for them. I do however feel that both can easily be taken the "p*** out of". Firstly on the stop course by riders going backwards or turning around. That should be stamped on. On the "No-Stop" course many proclaim that they "never stop" when they blatantly have. Even the best of them have done it, I know I've marked them!!

Next on the difference's between the WTC/BTC and the Novogar/SSDT etc. We have a pretty healthy situation where 10 to 12 riders turnout for the premier class with 20-30 in the backup classes. Now this is the Pinnacle of the sport where Bou, Raga, Dougie and Dibs have spent years preparing for and in which we have up to 5 potential winners. The Novogar is supposedly a "Clubmans" championship on courses many clubs cannot find except for one weekend a year. So we have a 10-15 section trial run over 3 to four laps on a closed course against a trial with 20 to 40 sections run over 1 or 2 laps. It's rather like comparing F1 to the Le Mans Sportscar series. Both run similar rules but are completely different to watch!! However both can be won by a competent Driver.

Most long endurance Trials have become "Enduros" and we all know the best Enduro pilots come out of Trials. The remaining long distance "Trials" are put together in such a way that a Trials Motorcycle can "last the course" and would have an advantage against a Enduro Motorcycle. Some would say they have an advantage anyway. In many ways a current F1 car would have a ball at Le Mans in a similar fashion.

Basically we have two types of Trial. One is the Multi lap short course Trial that all riders go to every weekend. WTC/BTC emulate these but with course to test the best. The Novogar, SSDT and Scott are now Trials that most clubs could only ever put on once a year due to the work that has to be put into them. Because of this very Few clubs can run all types of Trials but every rider could run in every trial whichever rules they run.

[gizza5]

A lot of people are using the SSDT as a No Stop example and the success of the trial since reverting back to the No Stop Rules, fortunately the sections are ideal for this and agreed the further South you go it may be more difficult...................But not impossible as the rules were the same down there as they were up North in the past.

Does the section have to be hard simple answer No! Going back to using the SSDT as an example our very own DL, Top 6 rider in the world!!! should have flattened those clubman sections, but marks were still shed and without scrutinising the section scorecards I bet there were a few real Clubby riders that beat him on the sections where he dabbed.

I think it will make it a more level playing field (No pun intended)!!!

Just a thought if someone was interested in starting up trials and goes to watch a trial in its present format they would probably say there is no way I can hop and skip round like that?

If he went to a No stop trial my thinking is that he would think he could have a bit of a chance?

Now if that puts Bums on Bikes that has got to be good for the Impoters, the Dealers, the Second Hand Market, Clubs and Entries that has got to be good for our Sport rather than going down the Pan?

[mickwren]

While all this debate is going on, one of the best natural Trials in the country has been cancelled due to lack of entries. ( Bootle Presidents) Just what the hell do riders want ?

[timp]

Whatever the rules you can't please all of the riders all of the time.

I don't think anyone is saying that "non stop" is perfect. Its main failing is the interpretation of what is a "stop". Most observers allow a hesitation. Some don't.

This is where "stop for a 1" works and was a good compromise for many years and I think is the rule which we should go back to. Its downfall was soft observing. If the ACU had only allow trials to run that stuck to the rules (a stop is a 1) we wouldn't be in this position of going "non stop"

However it seems we will be going to "non stop" so its best if we all try it properly before writing it off. A local club to me uses non stop without any problems and it uses a very southern type venue. When they have to use hopping rules for centre champ trials its a lot harder to take marks so the sections have to get tighter to suit. Result-rubbish tight sections.

[pete_scorpa3]

In our non stop trials, I've often heard riders say 'that's not a non stop section' when they really mean 'to ride that section non stop I'm going to have to have a dab to get the bike around that turn!'

How many times do you see someone hopping and bouncing and reversing to line up a turn, only to drop marks when they over balance, when they could have had a safe one, turned the bike and been away.

With non stop, it will make us all think a lot harder about carefully placed dabs and making the most out of them.

The best riders will still be the best riders. One rule for all is a good idea!

[big john]

In our non stop trials, I've often heard riders say 'that's not a non stop section' when they really mean 'to ride that section non stop I'm going to have to have a dab to get the bike around that turn!'

That's the problem, some riders don't like losing marks!

Big John

[bilc0]

)

The section design would be critical I'm not suggesting enduro speeds but certainly more like flat out in 3rd type of thing. Seeing highly skillfull riders control the bikes at speed whilst negotiating tough obstacles would definately be a big draw I would suggest.

Maybe add abit of Freestyle aswell.

[axulsuv]

But Gee , When I learned how to ride trials 30 odd years ago , half the process was as stated above , "where to take the one dab and make it count for something " Planning your line , and maybe take a 3 instead of a 5 ... But then we didn't hop around then either . A well placed/executed floater turn was about the best move you could master . And you practiced figure 8 turns at full lock as slow as you could maintain balance ! One lock to the other without any straight travel ... That's why I ride as many ITSA events as possible !!!!!

Glenn

[grahamjayzee]

Lots of intersting points, and some that may be changing my opinion!

I think I still prefer the notion of no-stop, but I can see where the arguments against are coming from. A couple of rhetorical questions though:

*Is it really necessary to have the same rules for WTC level as for everything else? These guys get to practice, so can practice what they want. After all, it's not the same indoor to outdoor and most of us don't aspire to be indoor mentalists! Or do we? Am I speaking too much from my own POV?

*Is it a big problem of we lose a few 5s? This seems to be the main arguement against no-stop. I don't have good enough concentration to do well at low-scoring trials where a careless 3 may put me 5th. Mud-fests where the range is 30-100 gives me a better chance of recovering from a careless one. So what if the nature of the results sheets changes from 1-40 to 30-100. We'll all get used to that, but I bet the ORDER will be pretty similar!

But, I am not against tweaking the rules to let the sport develop and keep current. It comes down to what we all believe is the essence of our sport. Let's leave the clubbies out of this because that area of the sport has (thankfully) remained pretty static for years (I've just come back to the sport after a 13 year lay-off, and trust me, not much has changed!). The real issues are at the sharper end. I agree that a well thought out and executed ride should be rewarded, but there has to be options available to suit rider's styles and strengths and weaknesses. I like Ian's idea about time penalties (although it puts a bit of pressure on observers) as a no-stop ride can be rewarded but is not essential. This can be made to work well in the sarf because NOT ALL sections need to be marked this way; only ones where the terrain is suitable for both approaches.

Tactical dabs have been part of my riding for years (tells you a lot really) and have always been prepared to sacrifice a dab for a big haul where I know my skills are inadequate to make that tight downhill turn. With a time penalty system, you have the option to take a dab, hop and bounce, or commit to a no-stop ride. Needs some working because the no-stop may take longer, but I think this idea of available options is worth exploring. AndySV1K has some reasonable points that as a newbie are very valid; his style and skill level means that by stopping, it reduces the gap between him and the better riders and makes it all viable. Were we to deny him that option, we consign him to the bottom of the results sheet and destroy his enthusiasm; who's to say that as he improves he'll still want to stop?

What we don't want though, is the reqirement to be able to trick ride in order to attempt a section. I would like to think I can attack the hard route in the sarf midlands on those trials where it is not a centre championship trial. Were it to be a hopping fest, I'll buy a twinshock and stick to the easy route. I'm OK with that, but many of us are a bit more aspirational!

I still think if trials are set out with care and for the majority, and marked fairly then no-stop or stop permitted doesn't make a huge difference.

Good discussion though.

Graham

[dixie]

Andy totally agree with you on this. If the rule of

stop = 1 is in place this is OK, it is a choice you would make as a rider and no one could argue the case with observer.

If it is this weird North Yorkshire and above (so it appears) rule of

stop = 5 then this is not a choice you can make and effectively reduces trials not to a skill where the best rider wins but the person who keeps moving wins.

OK the above is a very extreme scenario but is potentially the situation you could get in some trials.

Like you say you either fully commit and 'possibly' risk injury and time off work or not bother - how anyone can agree with this is beyond me especially the older riders who I guess (in my non medical opinion) could be more likely to pick up a worse injury or take longer to heal. All I can think is that the older riders ride (in the main) the clubmen sections where the risk of a larger scale acciddent is less.

And yes I am aware that 1) some younger riders are OK with non stop and 2) some very very good over 40's riders ride at an outstandingly high level

The other points that I feel are being missed are that if you have the choice how you ride it does not mean that the rider that can stop and hop will win a club / national / BTC or WTC event. I can stop and hop with relative ease but I dont often win a trial and am often beaten by some of the afore mentioned brilliant over 40's riders, many of whom ride non stop (but can trick ride).

The other thing is that the course organiser / clerk of the course does not have to lay a 'stop permitted' trial out in the way where you have to stop to get through every section.

I ride in trials where you are allowed to stop but this does not mean I stop, balance, hop and mess about in each section. If a section can be ridden without stopping the majority of riders will ride it that way. However as I mentioned before if halfway through a section a rider stops, looks where he/she is going then set off again why is that a 5?? Have they gained a huge advantage by briefly stopping to see where they go? NO

As it stands everyone should be relatively happy that they can choose how they ride a section. If a turn is put in a section whereby it is easier to stop, hop then go and people do this and get a zero then whats the problem? I'm pretty sure a good non stop rider can ride this in their chosen method. Worst case you have a dab, bring the bike around and carry on - so 1 point lost, not 5 points

With the stop rules in place no one starts giving a 5 to the riders that ride no stop through a section where 90% stop, hop and go so why punish riders that ride the way they want to?.

Seems mental to me and obviously divides everyone's opinion.

Cant see how risking losing riders that already ride and enjoy trials is good for anyone involved in the sport. Like Dabster said, introducing no stop is not suddenly going to make thousands of people say 'ohh goofy gum drops, you can stop in trials now, I might take it up'

Actually again and again it has made people start riding again FACT NOT FICTION. If a rider wants to ride indoor style trials or arena trials thats fine ,but why ruin propper trials ????? the point is if you make a section to tight to ride on full lock you have to bounce why punish the VAST majority who cant hop....

[dixie]

I have found this thread interesting reading all the posts.

One thing that strikes me is that what has happened here is simply a change BACK to the rules of olden days! My view is simple - this is shortsighted in the least (but its a step in the right direction ... probably). You only need to read some other threads on here and see whats happening in other MC sports to see what people are watching and what is pulling the crowds.

With established MC genres like MX & Enduro already doing well, we are now seeing the rise of EnduroCross gaining popularity in the states - X Games as well - Massive event.. and then you look at trials? despite the awesome skill - nowhere to be seen!

Do people honestly think just going back to NON STOP rules will fix this?

Now I am trying to imagine what a NON-STOP section would look like for these top boys and with basically a high percentage of the world sections I have seen being outdoor indoor sections, then most of them would have to be scrapped.

Now what I would propose ( at least at the top level) is to add the features of why some of the other sports are doing so well, and that is speed! trials is simply far too slow! ( you may say thats the idea but in this post im talking about ways to grow the sport)

The section design would be critical I'm not suggesting enduro speeds but certainly more like flat out in 3rd type of thing. Seeing highly skillfull riders control the bikes at speed whilst negotiating tough obstacles would definately be a big draw I would suggest.

Maybe it could be scored on time in and out the section with a combination of dabs? or maybe many other ways.

Radical but hey, thats me

Atom like your idea and it would be nice to watch,but why is everone obsessed with making events PAY and drawing huge crowds ,money again its not a buisness its a sport ,when people want to make a sport pay its game over for the ordinary guy...