Week 133 - Make Way For Dynamic Trials!

[bilc0]

Oh Dear.

There's no changing it.

Maybe it's not a good idea to have Honda so deep into Trials.

Edited September 9, 2009 by bilc0

[telecat]

I have to ask what the point of that new truck is? Most seem to think that Montesa won't be able to produce any more bikes as they only have 30 odd engines left and Honda don't want to produce any more!

[jordi]

I have to ask what the point of that new truck is?

I think that the trials team are making use of the cast off truck from the Honda MotoGP squad.

Must be a cost saving there!

[woody]

Whilst I have no interest in WTC and don't really care what they do with the rules, how many riders they have or how much it costs, I can't help but wonder why there is any good reason you need a facility like that to run a team for a trial. It's ridiculous. It's not just the rules, the (mostly) same type of sections they ride or the huge capability of a modern bike that seems to contribute to WTC losing its way, the need for facilities like this, hardstanding paddocks, phone lines, press offices, multiple minders just seems to be pushing WTC further and further away from the original concept of trials.

In terms of stop/no-stop, it's interesting to watch the latest videos from the Spanish WTC which had some very big climbs that looked pretty challenging and dare I say it a little more traditional. If they had been run under no-stop rules there would have been a few fives recorded as some riders simply failed to make the top of the climbs. After spinning to a stop they resorted to a lot of legwork to get going again, or hopping about to recover and regain forward motion. Backs up the ideal that big natural sections can still provide entertainment under no-stop rules, take marks and maybe replace the severe sections usually found in WTC. Contrast those big climbs with the inevitable man made arena style rev, splat, stop, hop section at the end, so utterly predictable and boring.

[steveo]

Like Woody, the WTC to me is another world. 99% of riders who compete can only watch and wonder at their prowess. Changing the game to no stop will not stop the same elite riders from winning. Removing the minders will certainly put back the responsibility on each rider and remove the ability to share the load. A minder really is outside assistance, whether that be mental stimulation during the event or section manicuring set to the riders liking, it should be the rider alone that assess and rides the course.

[jonny042]

I have to ask what the point of that new truck is? Most seem to think that Montesa won't be able to produce any more bikes as they only have 30 odd engines left and Honda don't want to produce any more!

Where does one go about hearing rumours like that? I've been wondering when we'll see a new bike from them... and now this "news".

[_tr11al5]

Dynamic Trials is probably the worst idea i have ever heard. The sport was once no stop and they changed that rule for many vaild reasons. If they want the sport to be more accessible to television and other forms of media, sections with smaller steps, less minder-rider teamwork and lack of current riding finesse is not the way to do it. The sport that we all take part in is based on the balance and ability of the rider, not who can get lucky and make it through sections. Trials is a minority sport and i would rather it be kept that way then transformed into a gnarlier version of extreme enduros, just so sponsors and bike companies can make more profit.

And Dynamic trials what a name to go with the concept.

Sam

[woody]

Not sure what the valid reasons are you refer to that changed the rule from no-stop to anything goes. This happened in the very early 80s because the FIA basically capitulated and allowed WTC riders who had begun to stop and roll back in sections to continue doing it instead of enforcing the no-stop rule. Next thing we had was stop balance hop reverse and mess about for as long as you like in a section. This was in twinshock days, not monos.

It's also unfair to describe a clean in a no-stop section as getting lucky. It takes a lot of ability to look at a section, fathom out a good line and then put both wheels perfectly on that line to achieve a clean without making a mistake. Stop and hop is also skilful, in a different way, but a way which also allows riders to make numerous mistakes and correct them. A bit like a golfer being allowed to tap their ball back onto the tee unpenalised to have another go if they screw up and slice a drive into the rough. They have to get it right first time and lose points if they go off line.

Whilst I prefer no-stop without question, I have doubts whether it will fix whatever it is that is wrong with WTC. As for television, that will never be the saviour of trials, it's a sport that just doesn't really lend itself to an audience other than genuine enthusiasts. Tart it up for TV to gain an audience and the sport you are promoting is no longer trials and will bear no resemblance to what goes on week in week out for club riders. And at the moment it is difficult to find anything wrong in the UK with trials for the masses. It also says something that virtually all of the high profile non-stop trials are over-subscribed or nearly so. Other nationals running under stop and hop, don't compare as favourably

Edited September 16, 2009 by Woody

[ishy]

I also don't think going no stop will cure the world championship problems, it won't make it any less expensive, or encourage more to riders.

If they could simplify the rules, anything goes like trick riding any which way they want, count the dabs up to five, 1,2,3,4,5 your done, and a fairly keen time limit to complete the section, it should make it easier to observe, the problems start when the observer calls a rider for sliding back or stopping, or not keeping forward momentum, so why not take the judgement call out of the rule book.

[billycraig]

the problems start when the observer calls a rider for sliding back or stopping, or not keeping forward momentum, so why not take the judgement call out of the rule book.

I've been doing a bit of observing for the last few weeks and will be doing it for a few more weeks till I'm fit enough to ride. I've done a few 'stop' trials and one 'no stop' event. At a classic trial I can honstly say I felt pretty pressurized dishing out fives for a stop. On a few occasions I found myself questioning 'if they'd stopped long enough', obviously they had or I wouldn't be asking the question. Really didn't enjoy doing it and on a few occasions I had people arguing with me about their score. An I'm talking older riders who accused me of 'wrecking their day'. Now I'm quite willing to defend myself (although I was a little concerned due to being on crutches ) but in my mind the observer doesn't deserve to have the job of making did he stop judgements that will get him/her embroelled in arguments, as they aren't on the payroll.

From my new point of view of observing I much preferred 'stop' rules as I had less judgement calls which in my book made my day enjoyable rather than stressful. My mother observed from when I was 6 to until I was 21(ish) but my dad stopped her due to aggressive riders.

Whatever the rules though we have to chill out, remember we do it for fun (unless your in the pro class!!), and respect the observers call before we go down the line of footballers challenging referees.

[the addict]

Good shout Billy, I,m not looking forward to observing a non stop trial either and I can see all sorts of arguments thrown at observers who we cant do without. Many may say "**** this" I,m not observing anymore events, who wants the hassle especially doing something for free and in the p***ing rain.

Edited September 16, 2009 by The Addict

[zippy]

Easy fix

Stop balance = no foul perfectly acceptable.

Stop and foot = 5

Stop and lean on tree = 5

Stop on log on Skid Pan = 5 at world level, OK at club level (it's for fun do we really care?)

backwards motion = 5

(eliminates the multiple attempt at same obstacle.)

ENFORCE THE RULES!!

Use PAID observers for WTC, Correct me if I am wrong but all other sports that have been referenced through these various Stop/ No Stop threads have PAID officials. If the Observers are paid then they are doing a job and can be fired and banned from observing, maybe that will help them stay consistent with their calls, (although they are human).

"It also says something that virtually all of the high profile non-stop trials are over-subscribed or nearly so. "

2 reasons,

Nostalgia and prestige for the events and bragging rights that "I finished"

and easier sections. I can be classed as Top Class in NO-Stop but in Stop allowed I am classed as 2 classes down. (big hit to ego)

WTC is so much different than club events.

Club level needs to find a set of rules that allows both styles of riding and the participants need to accept whatever class their skill level is.

IE I wanna hop about like a Jackrabbit on Crack never put my foot down and clear all my gates I get a clean.

My buddy rides the same class same section but can smoothly ride through without ever stopping never puts foot down and clears all gates he gets clean.

Same result two different "styles" of riding.

Biggest reason not many riders in WTC.....MONEY!! Their ain't enough of it from sponsorships (either for riders or the series itself) to assist young up and comers to join in the fray. Changing the WTC rules will not change that. And let's face it Trials on TV only attracts those of us that already ride.

[woody]

"It also says something that virtually all of the high profile non-stop trials are over-subscribed or nearly so. "

2 reasons,

Nostalgia and prestige for the events and bragging rights that "I finished"

and easier sections. I can be classed as Top Class in NO-Stop but in Stop allowed I am classed as 2 classes down. (big hit to ego)

WTC is so much different than club events.

Club level needs to find a set of rules that allows both styles of riding and the participants need to accept whatever class their skill level is.

IE I wanna hop about like a Jackrabbit on Crack never put my foot down and clear all my gates I get a clean.

My buddy rides the same class same section but can smoothly ride through without ever stopping never puts foot down and clears all gates he gets clean.

Same result two different "styles" of riding.

Biggest reason not many riders in WTC.....MONEY!! Their ain't enough of it from sponsorships (either for riders or the series itself) to assist young up and comers to join in the fray. Changing the WTC rules will not change that. And let's face it Trials on TV only attracts those of us that already ride.

Nothng to do with Nostalgia, most of them are modern trials, SSDT, Lakes etc. They are good events whose sections wouldn't need altering to use stop and hop rules. However, under those rules, the scores of the riders that can stop and hop properly would be a lot lower as they can stop and correct mistakes - that's about 5% of the entry. To the rest it would make little difference. They are not easy trials and it has nothing to do with dented egos, they are national status events with 2 routes - expert (very hard) and clubman (for above average riders). The point I was making was that no-stop rules aren't stopping people from entering the events, they are popular as they offer a challenge without the need for trick riding, whereas other trials, run under stop and hop rules and which are another notch up on the severity scale don't enjoy such big entries as few have the ability to ride them without the loss of many marks - it means they aren't enjoyable as they become just a struggle to finish.

Don't see how you can say low entries in WTC are due to cost - it's due to no more than a handful of riders being able to attempt the sections. There are actually 40 - 50 riders total at a WTC in all classes. Years ago there was only one class and the entry was swelled by riders with sufficient ability from the host country taking part in addition to the WTC regulars. In the European rounds riders would travel together in groups in one van to cut the costs. Today, it is impossible for riders from the host country to enter a WTC as they wouldn't get more than 2 feet through the start cards of any section. The ability level required is too great - whether stop or no-stop rules. It would cost very little more for a rider to compete in a WTC in their own country as it would to compete in any other trial. Cost, although a factor obviously, isn't the main issue.

[nigel dabster]

Easy fix

Stop balance = no foul perfectly acceptable.

Stop and foot = 5

Stop and lean on tree = 5

Stop on log on Skid Pan = 5 at world level, OK at club level (it's for fun do we really care?)

backwards motion = 5

(eliminates the multiple attempt at same obstacle.)

ENFORCE THE RULES!!

Use PAID observers for WTC, Correct me if I am wrong but all other sports that have been referenced through these various Stop/ No Stop threads have PAID officials. If the Observers are paid then they are doing a job and can be fired and banned from observing, maybe that will help them stay consistent with their calls, (although they are human).

"It also says something that virtually all of the high profile non-stop trials are over-subscribed or nearly so. "

2 reasons,

Nostalgia and prestige for the events and bragging rights that "I finished"

and easier sections. I can be classed as Top Class in NO-Stop but in Stop allowed I am classed as 2 classes down. (big hit to ego)

WTC is so much different than club events.

Club level needs to find a set of rules that allows both styles of riding and the participants need to accept whatever class their skill level is.

IE I wanna hop about like a Jackrabbit on Crack never put my foot down and clear all my gates I get a clean.

My buddy rides the same class same section but can smoothly ride through without ever stopping never puts foot down and clears all gates he gets clean.

Same result two different "styles" of riding.

Biggest reason not many riders in WTC.....MONEY!! Their ain't enough of it from sponsorships (either for riders or the series itself) to assist young up and comers to join in the fray. Changing the WTC rules will not change that. And let's face it Trials on TV only attracts those of us that already ride.

This scoring looks fine in theory but you would then get the rider thinking oh I am going to overbalance so i'll go forward a bit as I do then the observer would have to distinguish between a stop dab or rolling dab, wouldn't he? Similarily the brush or was it a lean on the tree and skid pan stop, or rock or slide, can't see it working or the least is 3 more 5's to decide on?

Why should the observers get the cash but not the riders?

Edited September 17, 2009 by Nigel Dabster

[zippy]

Hmmm..........seems I may have been speaking from my relatively uninformed about trials across the pond.

Apology.

working on removing foot from mouth.

Dabster,

I thought the World round riders did get cash for the 1st 2nd 3rd place finishes.

If they do not then there is a problem, this would make trials the only motor sport (I think again could be wrong) at that level that does not pay the winners.

Woody,

I understand that you mean that no stop is not keeping people from entering. I am suggesting that the same sections are used but stop and hop allowed. Don't make the sections harder keep them as is.

There is talk of it being skillful to choose a line and hold to it and be smooth through the section, That is very skillful I agree.

But there are statements that the stop and hop crowd can "correct for mistakes made" Actually in my limited experience those that can hop about like Jack Rabbits actually plan where they will stop, where they will hop and how far over etc. etc. so they are not correcting but sticking with the line that they planned.

Both styles of riding the better riders are able to correct if they make a mistake.

In my opinion these are just two different styles of riding trials.

unfortunately we can all find things that make observing difficult no matter what the rules are.

Also, I think I may be mixing club level events in with WTC opinions.

I can sometimes be an

Maybe that is the problem with trials "Too complicated"

Motocross first across finish line wins.

Enduro Fastest time wins.

Formula 1 First across finish line wins.

Drag racing Fastest time wins.

Nascar most beer drank and pushed opponents out of way wins.

Trials lowest score----------scoring has multiple factors

Golf lowest score------------relatively easy scoring strokes = points. (I know there are other penalties available also than just the stroke to hit the ball.)

I should just shut up now.