woody Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 They aren't that modified really Kev Nolan's Jumbo is standard apart from a set of Paioli forks as the original forks were scrap. They obviously aren't period and whilst I'd prefer a ruling that specifies period parts, it's debatable whether they offer any real advantage over a set of period Marzocchis Phil's Fantic has head angle and footrest position altered, neither are necessary, it's just personal preference really. OKO carb fitted - can't say that these offer any benefit over a correctly functioning original carb. I've tried a 240 Fantic with OKO set up and it was no different or better than my mate's standard bike with an unworn dellorto. He still has the 300 motor as far as I know and and also as far as I know there are no other mods. David Pye's Fantic I don't know much about but I'd guess it has same type of frame mods as Phil's but it may have a later engine - can't say that this would give much of an advantage as very very few sections are about power. Ian Baker's Honda is Classictrial prepared so the mods are documented on their website. Whilst I'd agree that some of these mods improve the bikes, the improvements are minor as opposed to what you see in Pre65 where the improvements are a quantam leap to the point where they are no longer recognisable as the original marque (I'm not saying this is wrong) The twinshock mods are generally in keeping with what could be done in their day if a rider wanted to and are more down to personal preference rather than radical improvements. None of them offer any significant advantage over a standard Fantic 200/240/300, Armstrong, Aprilia, Garelli etc. but obviously they are all far ahead of a 70s bike, even a modified one - why I think there is potential for year breaks for twinshock class. I'm in no way against mods like these obviously, it's part and parcel of machine ownership, but I really wouldn't want to see the day when we have modern T45 replacement frames, lightweight billett hubs and yokes, frame kits for later engines etc. To me, riding a twinshock is about riding a particular bike you enjoy riding, not turning it into something it never was or could be 25 years ago. What I meant before when I said they are perfectly rideable was that they don't ride like a pig as does your typical standard Pre65 bike, they are capable machines, but that's not to say owners shouldn't personalise them to their own riding styles. Disc brakes thankfully are outlawed and hopefully will remain so. I can think of a few sections in recent trials where a disc would have been a huge advantage - unlike the mods above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gups Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 I hope we dont see discs in twinshock events, most people set a bike up to how they like it and to try and get the most of it even a modern trials iron,and there should be more limitations on pre65. I ride with kev alot and i know how particular he is to bike prep and he has set his bike up for him ,most people couldn't ride it alot of work and thought has gone into it, if you ever get the chance have ago you'll be surprised. Where do you draw the line with pre 65,most opt for electronic ignitition better fork inners to say the least ,would it be down to a scruteneer to spot these changes. This subject could run for ever with so many arguments as to wrong and write, to me i just want to ride the best i can and have fun. Happy trialing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trickymicky Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 I hope we dont see discs in twinshock events, most people set a bike up to how they like it and to try and get the most of it even a modern trials iron,and there should be more limitations on pre65. I ride with kev alot and i know how particular he is to bike prep and he has set his bike up for him ,most people couldn't ride it alot of work and thought has gone into it, if you ever get the chance have ago you'll be surprised. Where do you draw the line with pre 65,most opt for electronic ignitition better fork inners to say the least ,would it be down to a scruteneer to spot these changes. This subject could run for ever with so many arguments as to wrong and write, to me i just want to ride the best i can and have fun. Happy trialing You would need a scrutineer at each event to check bikes and respond to any eligibility complaints/protests from the previous event.Not an easy task in the case of Len Huttys bike for instance- it looks standard to me,so i assume it would have to be measured,weighed and a judgement made about whether the fork action is better than they were originally. Checking for modifications which are not visible externally will be particularly challenging,but could actually add interest to the event.For instance, Identifying whether a Cub is a 200 or a 250 is sure to draw a crowd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metisse Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Sorry to get away from the original thread, but talking of modifications, I cannot see how you can really allow later Reed valve Fantic engines in 240 frames etc etc and then get upset when someone slots a Mono yamaha engine into a frame...... Its either right and accepted and not and unacceptable there really arn t any grey areas as far as I can see... Also trick Ariels have always attracted criticism in the Sammy Miller series this is nothing new but then again it was nt really set up to cater for them either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malcra Posted November 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Sorry to get away from the original thread, but talking of modifications, I cannot see how you can really allow later Reed valve Fantic engines in 240 frames etc etc and then get upset when someone slots a Mono yamaha engine into a frame...... right, time to find that TR34 engine in the shed.... Apart from the obvious, ie disk brakes, hydraulic clutches, twinshocks on a mono frame etc, its going to be difficult. For any series like the SM, you wouldn't need to scruitineer every event, but maybe 'clarify' if your bike is eligible and in which class it should be at the beginning of the season ? Submit photos etc ....if you want to score championship points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mparrynorton Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 surely back in the days when sammy miller modified his Ariel i am certain there would have been competitors unhappy with the advantage he was gaining by doing such things, but things have to move on whats the point of a trial if only 70% of the entry finish due to using original 1960s technology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Sorry to get away from the original thread, but talking of modifications, I cannot see how you can really allow later Reed valve Fantic engines in 240 frames etc etc and then get upset when someone slots a Mono yamaha engine into a frame...... Its either right and accepted and not and unacceptable there really arn t any grey areas as far as I can see...Also trick Ariels have always attracted criticism in the Sammy Miller series this is nothing new but then again it was nt really set up to cater for them either. I agree with you in principal about the engines BUT, what do you do if someone fits a reed valve to their 240 motor. There is nothing wrong with that. Reeds have been around a long time, TY Yams had them in the 70s as standard fitment, UK specialists were fitting reeds to Ossas, Monts, Bultacos in early 70s onwards. To police it is next to impossible as unnless you know your stuff the engines all look the same. Same thing applies to having diiferent classes for Pre72, Pre80 and Post80. Who has the knowledge to scrutineer and date and place a bike in its right class and which clubs have the manpower to do it anyway. Does that 72 Bulto have a 340 6-speed ftted, has that MAR got a 350 Gripper motor with the fins shaved? We're reliant on riders being honest and in the main, most people I know who ride in the Miller, Traditional and other main classic events, don't want to modernise their bikes beyond 'acceptable' - subjective I know but most are in favour of not modernising them out of context. A 200/240/300 Fantic is the benchmark for twinshocks, in my opnion that is. Unfortunately there are some advocating that standard twinshocks aren't good enough for current twinshock events which is convincing some that they need to modify their bikes or they are uncompetitive - this is of course complete B*****ks as the sections aren't anywhere near as hard as a British national of their day. Saunders could lose around 20 odd marks on his Armstrong to win an event back then. I'd be over 100. If I'm losing about 20 marks in a national twinshock round now on the same kind of bike, he'd clean it with his eyes shut - the bikes are more than capable of handling the sections. Sure the older twinshocks have a harder time of it against the modern twinshocks - clutches are nowhere near as good, brakes aren't (apart from KT250) they are unstable under clutch./brake riding but - that's what they are and we either enjoy riding them for what they are or buy a GasGas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 surely back in the days when sammy miller modified his Ariel i am certain there would have been competitors unhappy with the advantage he was gaining by doing such things, but things have to move on whats the point of a trial if only 70% of the entry finish due to using original 1960s technology. Definitely, and that's the difference between the British stuff and the twinshocks - the Brit stuff reliability is plain awful and there is every reason to update components to make them work as they should in order that you finish an event rather than push the bike back to the van. Twinshocks, right from the first Bults are reliable right out of the box, although modern electronic ignition is favourable on anything over points...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gups Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Definitely, and that's the difference between the British stuff and the twinshocks - the Brit stuff reliability is plain awful and there is every reason to update components to make them work as they should in order that you finish an event rather than push the bike back to the van.Twinshocks, right from the first Bults are reliable right out of the box, although modern electronic ignition is favourable on anything over points...... i agree a good rider can still be in the running on a standard bike take Matt McDonald 2 top three places on a tlr 200 that hasn't been touched, and yes to fettle a pre 65 so you can enjoy your days sport is a must. Maybe there should be a class for all the highly modified bikes to compete against one another pre65 and twinshocks together after all they ride the same sections you could have Hutty Gaunt Baker Whiffin Nolan Wilmore and the likes trying to beat one another and let the rest of us get on and play . Would the pressure of knowing that everyone is capable of going clean laed to mistakes,or will they want harder sections to try and find a winner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b40rt Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 surely back in the days when sammy miller modified his Ariel i am certain there would have been competitors unhappy with the advantage he was gaining by doing such things, but things have to move on whats the point of a trial if only 70% of the entry finish due to using original 1960s technology. I think that back in the day Miller's Ariel would have been seen as a "works" bike, factory rider's have always had "exotica". It's all the cheat mods like Honda forks on Norton road holder bottoms that are more than pushing the boundaries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huntmaster Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 I think that back in the day Miller's Ariel would have been seen as a "works" bike, factory rider's have always had "exotica". Yes, very much so. No "production rules" were in effect there. In fact it took the demise of the production HT (and all four stoke Ariels) for parent company BSA to give Sam "Carte Blanche" to make whatever modifications he wanted...resulting in a famous but very "one off" machine that never saw the show room floor! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne_weedon Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 I think that back in the day Miller's Ariel would have been seen as a "works" bike, factory rider's have always had "exotica". It's all the cheat mods like Honda forks on Norton road holder bottoms that are more than pushing the boundaries. I seem to recall the Ariel he ran in later years (on GOV 132 plates!) had Bultaco Betors in Roadholder Sliders. Wayne.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trickymicky Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 I seem to recall the Ariel he ran in later years (on GOV 132 plates!) had Bultaco Betors in Roadholder Sliders. Wayne.... Yes,he did and still has the bike,so thats the series sponsor in the specials class with the rest of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Yes,he did and still has the bike,so thats the series sponsor in the specials class with the rest of them. Stuffs all those who say it's a cheat, fiddle not period though doesnt it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne_weedon Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Stuffs all those who say it's a cheat, fiddle not period though doesnt it Nothing is all it seems! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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