Spain To Use Gate Trial Rules For National Series

[nigel dabster]

Greeves, like you my personal preference is for Traditional Trials, but I also accept that our sport has many variations now.

Like you, I have many years in this sport, 40 now. My body is older, but I am not such an old man that my mind has closed to new ides.

OUR sport has a crisis of low participation at the World and National level. The RFME plan is an attempt to remedy the situation.

Anyone who takes the time to study the problem will see that Gate/Open Trials offers some good solutions to the problems. For those who have a closed mind there is nothing I can say. I don't say it is a perfect solution, but it is a good start.

Name one problem at WTC level that a gate trial will solve.

[ishy]

Name one problem at WTC level that a gate trial will solve.

only the best riders will take the majority of gates, but more riders will be able to ride the base section without fiving as many.

The observer only needs to add the number of gates ridden clean, and give the rider a zero score if they dab at any point in the section.

The section difficulty is up to the rider, they only ride what they think they can clean.

No need to make three different class gates, but you can still have the three classes.

If the weather turns bad, the sections are still rideable.

It adds a lot more lines to a section, so should be more interesting for the spectator, as riders change lines to adjust if they feel they can take on more or less gates.

[nigel dabster]

only the best riders will take the majority of gates, but more riders will be able to ride the base section without fiving as many.

The observer only needs to add the number of gates ridden clean, and give the rider a zero score if they dab at any point in the section.

The section difficulty is up to the rider, they only ride what they think they can clean.

No need to make three different class gates, but you can still have the three classes.

If the weather turns bad, the sections are still rideable.

It adds a lot more lines to a section, so should be more interesting for the spectator, as riders change lines to adjust if they feel they can take on more or less gates.

These are things the gate trial will give you, good or bad, not problems that are solved.

Its a bit like rugby union going to league and doing away with line outs, its different but not necessarily solving the problems.

At world level and the open free systems used here its not gates but value of gates that is used, which has negated imho the advantages of gate trials, if any.

Shirty has stated (sic) that "dibs has ridden 3 of these and is still unsure how it works/scores" so what chance spectators.

The complexity of three championship riders all riding the same routes within a section will not allow an occasional spectator to understand a comparison between one rider and the next. Good or bad it is not trials as we know it and I am sure would bring problems as well as solutions. If the spanish pursue it especially under the complex "openfree" rules then i doubt it will last for long.

Spain has different problems to the rest of us I'm sure, had it not been for the "spanish three" we may never have arrived where we are now.

[spenser]

For the reasons outlined in Ishy's post, I am in favor of trying gate trials/open free at the club level; the only other reason that I could add to his list is that a rider moving up a class is able to do so gradually by picking off pieces of the next level as he/she gets more comfortable. The current generation of kids have been brought up in a world of Play Stations, Nintendo units etc. and crave instant gratification, being able to move up a class without getting beaten up fulfills this need and may even attract more riders.

Yes the open free scoring is more complex, but could probably be changed, but the sport may not be able to stay the same as it was over the past decades and still remain relevant; things change, get used to it.

Spencer

[copemech]

These are things the gate trial will give you, good or bad, not problems that are solved.

Its a bit like rugby union going to league and doing away with line outs, its different but not necessarily solving the problems.

At world level and the open free systems used here its not gates but value of gates that is used, which has negated imho the advantages of gate trials, if any.

Shirty has stated (sic) that "dibs has ridden 3 of these and is still unsure how it works/scores" so what chance spectators.

The complexity of three championship riders all riding the same routes within a section will not allow an occasional spectator to understand a comparison between one rider and the next. Good or bad it is not trials as we know it and I am sure would bring problems as well as solutions. If the spanish pursue it especially under the complex "openfree" rules then i doubt it will last for long.

Spain has different problems to the rest of us I'm sure, had it not been for the "spanish three" we may never have arrived where we are now.

Ishy makes good points here, and so does dabster. The big question seems to be (how else do you even set a section that others can ride)?

As this level of skill and difficulty has been reached, how do you challenge the top riders without killing them, and yet make it even possible for others to participate? And for what reward?

Let us take the TDN thing as example, most teams(if they can afford it) do not even attempt the top lines, just stupid!

Yet getting back to basics, tell me again exactly what a world Junior Championship pays? What does a World Championship pay?

[nigel dabster]

Ishy makes good points here, and so does dabster. The big question seems to be (how else do you even set a section that others can ride)?

As this level of skill and difficulty has been reached, how do you challenge the top riders without killing them, and yet make it even possible for others to participate? And for what reward?

Let us take the TDN thing as example, most teams(if they can afford it) do not even attempt the top lines, just stupid!

Yet getting back to basics, tell me again exactly what a world Junior Championship pays? What does a World Championship pay?

The rewards from the fim are zero, start money is non existent which is an easily solvable problem.

[nigel dabster]

For the reasons outlined in Ishy's post, I am in favor of trying gate trials/open free at the club level; the only other reason that I could add to his list is that a rider moving up a class is able to do so gradually by picking off pieces of the next level as he/she gets more comfortable. The current generation of kids have been brought up in a world of Play Stations, Nintendo units etc. and crave instant gratification, being able to move up a class without getting beaten up fulfills this need and may even attract more riders.

Yes the open free scoring is more complex, but could probably be changed, but the sport may not be able to stay the same as it was over the past decades and still remain relevant; things change, get used to it.

Spencer

We don't need this system at club level who wants this in the uk? My guess is no one, you are trying to solve a problem thats not there (in the uk). We have a very successful scottish and many other trials that operate stop and no stop and all are over subscribed so what has the open free got to do with us?

[ishy]

We tried gate trials at club level, I thought the scoring was too harsh on the rider, if the rider dabs at any point in the section, then the score for that section is a failure.

That Is why I think it will be spot on for the world championship because it is so strict on scoring.

Complex? gate trials isn't complex at all, in fact when we have run them at club level, scoring a ride was easy.

If a rider rides from the start card to the end cards, passes through one or more of the gates and the whole ride is done feet up, then the rider records the value of the gates ridden in that section.

If the rider doesn't keep feet up, breaks a boundary marker, looses control of the machine all reasons that constitute a failure now, the rider is then given a zero score for the section.

At the end of the event, the rider with the most points is the winner.

Open free came after gate trials, and as I understand it, gives partial scores for gates ridden and is more complex in the scoring department, I have not ridden the open free system so can't give a fair comment on it.

I see falling numbers riding the world championship, and one of the problems is only a few of the riders can have a fair shot at cleaning the section, the rest are going to struggle and that

[nigel dabster]

Now we are getting somewhere!

Problem 1

I see falling numbers riding the world championship.

How can we increase numbers in the wtc, do we need bigger entries than the current 50 or so? Why is there on average 13 riders at the top level?

Problem 2

only a few of the riders can have a fair shot at cleaning the section, the severity is too hard, or the section design is wrong? Or more likely they have gone away from the 5 hard 5 easy 5 middling rule?

"before you ask how many world rounds have I been too in the last three years, the answer is none, not one nada, do you need to attend to see it's failing?" failing on some levels yes, but no you don't need to attend just the same as I know our club doesn't need gate trials even though I've only seen a few..

"I think this type of system would help world championships," Simply I don't think it will help one jot at wtc level and just think it too much of a change in the basic format, untried at the top level and will create more problems than solutions.

[metisse]

Recently we ran a club trial and I was surprised to see it was using the " open free " style of marking. My initial thoughts were trust the French to take something simple and complicate it.

To a point I was right. Different coloured gates with differing values. If I understand it correctly you have a time limit in the section to which you must or can ride as many gates a possible and to which you are capable of passing through. You must not cross your tracks and to get to a gate you cannot pass any other gates the wrong way. Hope that makes sense.

The observer ran behind me flipping over a scoring card counting the gates and their relevenent value. If you take on a high value gate but dab, you gain the gate value but loose points as you have dabbed and the higher the value gate when you dab the more points you loose, so when you walk the section and this is only allowed at the start , I beleive ,you have to really to think can I take this gate on and clean it otherwise ,valuewise it isn t worth it, I might as well play safe and go for the low value option just to stay clean. Then as I see it you have to keep any eye on the guys you want beat or are in your class to see what gates they are taking on. A little cat and mouse............

Now did I enjoy the trial, well it wasn t serious and it was a chance to have a go at something different. Its complicated to start with and you have a maths lesson at the end of the section counting up the gates, subtracting the points lost via footing, and I would think without several observers on each section the problem of accurate scoring would arise.

Its not my cup of tea really, I like the simplicity of everyone in the same class riding the same route, but thats not to say its wrong, its just different, it may suit some riders as it is a variation of trials as we know it.

Hope this helps in the discussion.

[ishy]

Looking at the stats from the 09 season > http://www.fim-live.com/en/sport/trial/classifications/ <

Eleven riders from 4 different countries rode all the events, 6 of those from Spain. and three from the UK, one from Japan, one France and one italy.

Only 23 riders are down that rode one or more most riding the home round.

There is a big gap in ability and it shows, I think more would try if they could at least get through some of the sections, but none want to go out and fail most of the sections in front of the home fans.

I have heared people say at world rounds "our riders look like novice riders compared to the top riders" it doesn't give any rider the incentive to even ride the local round if the best the can hope for is to look bad.

I don't know how long Fuji will keep going, but without him it's a bit of a two country show at the moment.

[nigel dabster]

...as long as you don't include the Junior and Youth riders. These lads are an integral part of the scene and have the chance to get to be World champion at their age group, and an important stepping stone to the full championship.

In the few years that I have been following the wtc closely these lower groups have increased in popularity year on year, and I am sure these will feed riders through.

However these lower classes are sometimes used as "guest" classes and if this were developed to be a local country class that would increase the entries, if it were entry numbers you are after.

If a simple reduction in severity is all that is needed then the 30 % split as detailed above would be a good place to start. Maybe the guy who checks the sections Michel from Belgium I think could over see the severity issue, it could be fanfared by the FIM and lesser lights encouraged to participate. Its certainly worth a try and as everyone says the top lads will always win, until it gets too a stage were they feel its too easy, then we are back to square one. It is almost an unsolvable problem and year on year the top lads get better and you and me are probably no better and the gulf between widens annually.

It is summat that needs looking at and as our "shop window" should concern us all.

[ishy]

I know the event I did way back when, it was required a few sections catered for the US riders and what sections were the hardest, middle and easiest, the then new Junior class rode the same course but didn't need to ride the three hardest sections, but they all did because they could score world round points too.

But making sections for the home countries riders kind of hits a wall when in Spain or the UK for that matter as they are at the sharp end of the game.

I'm not sure about the youth and junior classes today, with all the expense etc does it thin most of them out before they even get to the top class ?.

There was a big push back then to try and get trials in to the Olympics, and it was stated more countries needed to participate to strengthen the case, that seems to have fizzled.

I don't think anyone has a clue how to make the game more attractive to both spectator or rider, in most sports if you want to win you just have to run faster.

[copemech]

Recently we ran a club trial and I was surprised to see it was using the " open free " style of marking. My initial thoughts were trust the French to take something simple and complicate it.

To a point I was right. Different coloured gates with differing values. If I understand it correctly you have a time limit in the section to which you must or can ride as many gates a possible and to which you are capable of passing through. You must not cross your tracks and to get to a gate you cannot pass any other gates the wrong way. Hope that makes sense.

The observer ran behind me flipping over a scoring card counting the gates and their relevenent value. If you take on a high value gate but dab, you gain the gate value but loose points as you have dabbed and the higher the value gate when you dab the more points you loose, so when you walk the section and this is only allowed at the start , I beleive ,you have to really to think can I take this gate on and clean it otherwise ,valuewise it isn t worth it, I might as well play safe and go for the low value option just to stay clean. Then as I see it you have to keep any eye on the guys you want beat or are in your class to see what gates they are taking on. A little cat and mouse............

Now did I enjoy the trial, well it wasn t serious and it was a chance to have a go at something different. Its complicated to start with and you have a maths lesson at the end of the section counting up the gates, subtracting the points lost via footing, and I would think without several observers on each section the problem of accurate scoring would arise.

Its not my cup of tea really, I like the simplicity of everyone in the same class riding the same route, but thats not to say its wrong, its just different, it may suit some riders as it is a variation of trials as we know it.

Hope this helps in the discussion.

Sounds as though what you rode was similar to what we might do as an alternate event. Great fun for most, yet it is difficult to keep up with the +- thing.

Just how it might be done in Spain may use the stricter rules, in which one dab on anything is a bust! Yet it may still yet offer lesser point optopns for lesser riders within the same sections.

Having just reviewed some of Bou's videos, to be honest, I am not sure that I could set sections for these guys? Just stupid! Not here anyway!

TN is another story.

[pa.]

We have used a system here that a rider can choose to ride an easier line in a section and is given a point penalty plus any riding penalties they may incur. Whilst we use 1 point for each step down from the hardest line I expect 2 points would be more suited to high level competitions. This allows a rider to make a judgment on the level for each section they will ride what they feel is right for them. All normal points are lost and would work with Stop or No Stop scoring. The rider needs to signal to the observer which line they are riding and we do this with flip cards at the start that the rider flips over the colour of the line they are going to ride. The Observer acknowledges this by holding up a coloured square to confirm this then the rider is free to start the section. Both the score and colour are recorded on the riders score card. The rider can choose to ride a different line on their next lap if they wish. This system works very well when you have riders of varying abilities riding against each other.

I have written a scoring program that works with this system and if anyone would like to look at it or use it drop me a line or PM.