Two Fer

[ishy]

All the back and forth about rules, classes , section difficulty, the list goes on, are we ever going to get back to just worrying about cleaning the next section?.

Ask twenty people if they want Stop or no stop, what classes or lines they prefer in an event and you get twenty different answers, and when changes are made the one who is stuck applying said changes is the volunteer who only does this work because they love the sport.

Couldn

[the addict]

well said Ishy, I like that,

I like both rules in there own suited venues, as I have said before, non stop around the Midland/south mid centre would be next to impossible without observers being leaniant, and if they're leniant whats the point?

Edited December 11, 2009 by The Addict

[chewy]

How do you decide what is what for example World trials rounds; what is it? ..about 13 guys capable and regular competitors in a series of events all over the globe. Then you go on on down the ability levels & it comes right on down to local club trials. If you discount world trials as being a different level of trials from the rest of us why is it like it is? and so it goes on. If trials is to be inclusive (as they have been in the past) they either need to have a handicapping system .(for which I have no suggestions or aspirations), make allowances for ability levels (multi route) or as some say look at why trials worked in the past and why there is so much dissatisfaction today. If I were a consultant (heaven forbid) in management I would put it down to poor leadership. I know that trials folk are often independant types it kind of goes with the territory but clear guidlines and simple rules for all would make it eisier to organise our sport so on that level I agree with you.

[zippy]

Lawyers have ruined it.

And all the "read between the lines" crap.

example.

"The rules don't say you can ride between those two trees with outside boundary markers make a trail ride loop and come back into the section between those same trees without crossing your path"

"OH" says rider who just did that "But the rules don't say I can't either"

Problem is nobody likes a 5, so many will argue any arbitrary point they can to get out of a 5.

yep failure sucks no matter the reason, that is why you have multiple attempts at the same sections, so you can improve.

Ride better and you will place better.

the Two fer may not be an entirely bad idea. But how do you keep the difficulty low enough for the newbies that want to try out the sport and challenge the middle riders?

[copemech]

Personally, I have a fettish for the ABC format with an easy line for entry level(or disabled) riders in the club trials.

[trialsnutterman]

non stop around the Midland/south mid centre would be next to impossible

I don't get that at all, I've heard a few of you saying you can't do no stop down there but why?

I'm guessing you'll say you haven't got the land but if so surely it is easier to find a section that will take marks if the riders can't stop?

[nigel dabster]

I don't get that at all, I've heard a few of you saying you can't do no stop down there but why?

I'm guessing you'll say you haven't got the land but if so surely it is easier to find a section that will take marks if the riders can't stop?

Come down here and ride an event and you will very soon understand why, we have no land really, period. If you can imagine a flat field with a ditch then thats something close.

[the addict]

Come down here and ride an event and you will very soon understand why, we have no land really, period. If you can imagine a flat field with a ditch then thats something close.

Many venues around here are very small and very limited to what the terrain offers especially for the hard route. Hard route usually means very very tight sections, impossible to do non stop, there’s simply not enough terrain to set 10 sections at many places as non stop and if you did, the sections would be way to easy or way to dangerous. There are good venues about but no-where near enough for the hard route to be non stop without the observers being very lenient, and as I said above if they are lenient what’s the point???? the one mark for a stop rule was a joke around here and I think that’s why the ACU changed to stop allowed again. Most observers counted to three before giving a stop mark???? so again what was the point?? I did lots of trials and never got a mark for stopping

Edited December 12, 2009 by The Addict

[trialsnutterman]

I have rode down near you, well I've rode the Wallace a few times or is that the cream of the crop.

If you're having to make the hard route hard by putting tight turns in then it has got to be easier to take marks with the full no stop rules.

Let say you had got some hard route rider who can hop really well, it wouldn't matter now tight a corner was under the current stopping rules he/she would get around it with out putting a foot down, you might end up making it that tight that they would five it due to the wheels going over the top of a flag but it is just going to upset the riders. Now get them to do it without stopping they will probably not get around it unless the turn is made a little wider, now watch a rider who has just started riding the hard route, ride the same section which would he prefer to ride the stupidly tight one or the one with a bit more room?

[the addict]

I have rode down near you, well I've rode the Wallace a few times or is that the cream of the crop.

If you're having to make the hard route hard by putting tight turns in then it has got to be easier to take marks with the full no stop rules.

Let say you had got some hard route rider who can hop really well, it wouldn't matter now tight a corner was under the current stopping rules he/she would get around it with out putting a foot down, you might end up making it that tight that they would five it due to the wheels going over the top of a flag but it is just going to upset the riders. Now get them to do it without stopping they will probably not get around it unless the turn is made a little wider, now watch a rider who has just started riding the hard route, ride the same section which would he prefer to ride the stupidly tight one or the one with a bit more room?

You have no idea what jo club trials/venues are like down here and never will untill you ride a few, Wallace? thats a National,lots of groups etc, try running a 10 section trial at any of those groups and see what you'd come up with? Tight turns take marks down here thats why they're in, no run ups at hills, or steps etc etc, make what we have non stop so you can turn easy and you'd have nothing, I don't think you'd beleive some of the venues down here and how a club could put a good trial on but many do and fair play to them for it.

Many of our turns are impossible to ride around without hopping let alone non stop

Edited December 12, 2009 by The Addict

[nigel dabster]

I have rode down near you, well I've rode the Wallace a few times or is that the cream of the crop.

If you're having to make the hard route hard by putting tight turns in then it has got to be easier to take marks with the full no stop rules.

Let say you had got some hard route rider who can hop really well, it wouldn't matter now tight a corner was under the current stopping rules he/she would get around it with out putting a foot down, you might end up making it that tight that they would five it due to the wheels going over the top of a flag but it is just going to upset the riders. Now get them to do it without stopping they will probably not get around it unless the turn is made a little wider, now watch a rider who has just started riding the hard route, ride the same section which would he prefer to ride the stupidly tight one or the one with a bit more room?

Perhaps a geograhy lesson is in order, in case you didn't know the wallace is run on the south downs which has at least some hills. Perhaps you missed the fact that Seymours is man made?(well done stu!)

Seriously you must have driven south on the A1 and looked left towards cambridge and thought nice and flat round here, no stones either? There are the odd bits here and there but stop allowed is almost always essential and enables us to put on trials which have a hard route. I wouldn't for one moment suggest this is always the case but for us around here its important to have that option.

[trialsnutterman]

Perhaps a geograhy lesson is in order,

Seriously you must have driven south on the A1 and looked left

What, your saying I need a Geography lesson the addict has his home town marked as Oxford you as Milton Keynes as far as I know both these places are west of the M1 no wear near east of the the A1?

Answer this please with a yes or a no: is the same section easy or harder to ride with stopping and hopping allowed compared with doing it non stop?

Now explain how allowing hopping can ever make it easier to put a hard section in. I just don't see it personally.

[nigel dabster]

What, your saying I need a Geography lesson the addict has his home town marked as Oxford you as Milton Keynes as far as I know both these places are west of the M1 no wear near east of the the A1?

Answer this please with a yes or a no: is the same section easy or harder to ride with stopping and hopping allowed compared with doing it non stop?

Now explain how allowing hopping can ever make it easier to put a hard section in. I just don't see it personally.

Look mate if you can't keep up then lets not bother, if you could see it first hand then it would be simple to understand.

The south midland centre is clearly defined in the ACU handbook but if you can't be bothered to look, roughly it goes from oxford to cambridge, north london to J18 M1. Within this area and many other bits of southern england due to various pressures which are not countrywide our land is very very limited. The problem is mainly that there is not an abundance of either rough or rocky places to ride.

What we have often resembles flat fields like that you might see should you venture down the A1.

Consequently the sections very often could not extract marks from the hard route if it was no stop, ie it needs to marked out tight.

So clearly its harder non stop if not impossible, but as a stop allowed section will extract a variety of marks depending on the skill of the rider, which is what trials is all about isn't it?

Edited December 13, 2009 by Nigel Dabster

[trialsnutterman]

Consequently the sections very often could not extract marks from the hard route if it was no stop, ie it needs to marked out tight.

So clearly its harder non stop if not impossible, but as a stop allowed section will extract a variety of marks depending on the skill of the rider, which is what trials is all about isn't it?

Fair enough you've got flat fields, I still think you would make a better hard route with the no stop rule, you can even make it tight if needed, it is possible to hop and maintain forward motion.

I would have said no stop bring riders of differing abilities to a more level playing field, I think that is a good thing though, I think the stop allowed gives the rider who can hop the best the advantage so they will take a more convincing win, I think this is bad as the riders at the bottom of the results don't stand a chance.

[the addict]

Fair enough you've got flat fields, I still think you would make a better hard route with the no stop rule, you can even make it tight if needed, it is possible to hop and maintain forward motion.

I would have said no stop bring riders of differing abilities to a more level playing field, I think that is a good thing though, I think the stop allowed gives the rider who can hop the best the advantage so they will take a more convincing win, I think this is bad as the riders at the bottom of the results don't stand a chance.

There is no doubt riding a turn non stop is harder than being able to hop to make the turn, but if the turn is so tight that it cant be rode non stop then we'll get everyone with 5's or observers will be leininat and let the stop go as a clean.

Many turns down here as set out so you absolutley have to hop to get around and many cant be done on the move if the rule is to be 100% strict, I can remember when non stop was introduced about 12 years or so ago and the gap actually got bigger between the better lads and the back of the feild on the hard route. What I saw was over night the better lads learned how to hop on the go as you say but the mid/end of the feild could,nt and fived just about every section where the inevertable South Midland tight turn was put in.

I rode a section they used in the Earl Shilton Trial back in September, I was told by somebody there that the better lads rode it non stop, I could get through it ok but had to stop a couple of times to line up or correct, I would never be able to ride such a section non stop so I would have got a mighty 20 score on that section with non stop rules where as with stop allowed I may have got away with 3-5. Now in my book the gap has got vastly bigger on just one section of the trial not smaller as you imply? The hard route down here is usually quite a small entry, not because of the hopping but more the section severity, if you cant hop you take a big dab but if the severity of the section is too much for you then you do the Clubman route. Non stop down here would mean much more servere sections to take marks and as we dont have the land in most cases some of the sections would mean going over or up stuff that really isnt on for all the hard route riders.

Winter weather helps down here and opens up the sections for us but in the summer its abit of a nightmare when grip is easy everywhere and not much to go at without risking someone having a major off. I cant see how a scoring system that gives you a maximum for a quick stop would even things up for anyone down here when a dab would get you round a tight turn without hopping, the lesser lights will stop and hesitate and pay heavily for it not the other way around.

Don't get me wrong though, I like riding non stop trials in their place and ride quite a few of the non stop Nationals, but down here its a bloody tough job.

Edited December 13, 2009 by The Addict