Two Fer

[tricky dicky]

I dont think that the gap will get bigger. The main point of the matter is somehting you hit the nail on the head with and thats that observers wont dish out 5's and they should. Bugger upsetting somebody, its a sport. In any other sport there are penalties for doing things wrong ie golf, you hit the ball into the water and you get a dropped shot or in snooker, you miss and give away 4 points. I think that whatever rules it is that the observers shouldnt be scared of fiving little johnny cos his dad is an ar5ehole! they should just get reported straight to the clerk of the course and excluded in my opinion. I would only ever dream about questioning my score if I had been penalised for something that isnt in the rulebook. Its irrelevant to me what rules it is cos I can ride both. I dont mind the hopping rule at all but something needs to be defined by the clubs to state which rule it is at the trial. There are numerous events that I have ridden this year and nobody has a clue what rules it is! As for the original post, the problem that I see is that everybody wants a route to suit them, this just isn't possible to suit everybody and never will be! As my dad has pointed out to me many times, when he started riding in the 70's, there was one route and that was it! When I started riding in 91 there were usually 2 routes but the beginners route was just starting to filter through. I rode a trial on sunday and there was 5 routes, in my opinion its so much effort and the 50/50 hard/clubman route doesnt do anything but ruin the hard route. This 50/50 job is a gimmick and unless the land is perfect it doesn't work. All in my opinion obviously!

[the addict]

I dont think that the gap will get bigger. The main point of the matter is somehting you hit the nail on the head with and thats that observers wont dish out 5's and they should. Bugger upsetting somebody, its a sport. In any other sport there are penalties for doing things wrong ie golf, you hit the ball into the water and you get a dropped shot or in snooker, you miss and give away 4 points. I think that whatever rules it is that the observers shouldnt be scared of fiving little johnny cos his dad is an ar5ehole! they should just get reported straight to the clerk of the course and excluded in my opinion. I would only ever dream about questioning my score if I had been penalised for something that isnt in the rulebook. Its irrelevant to me what rules it is cos I can ride both. I dont mind the hopping rule at all but something needs to be defined by the clubs to state which rule it is at the trial. There are numerous events that I have ridden this year and nobody has a clue what rules it is! As for the original post, the problem that I see is that everybody wants a route to suit them, this just isn't possible to suit everybody and never will be! As my dad has pointed out to me many times, when he started riding in the 70's, there was one route and that was it! When I started riding in 91 there were usually 2 routes but the beginners route was just starting to filter through. I rode a trial on sunday and there was 5 routes, in my opinion its so much effort and the 50/50 hard/clubman route doesnt do anything but ruin the hard route. This 50/50 job is a gimmick and unless the land is perfect it doesn't work. All in my opinion obviously!

Thats my main concern is the observing of non stop at many venues here, I do a fair share of observing and have no problem or pressure with the stop allowed rules, but non stop brings pressure and hassle to an observer. Its unpaid, most of the time bloody freezing cold or p***ing down then you get some **** arguing the toss whether he stopped or not when blatently he did. The 1 mark for a stop rule was a joke down here as I have said earlier and finally the ACU realised this and went back to stop allowed, if we get non stop now,we'll back to stop allowed within two years again for that reason.

Routes? yes to many, I can remember two routes only (eighties) and getting mighty scores when I started but soon got better for it, many routes are way to easy even for begginers, I just cant see how they ever progress or learn from it. I am a fan of the 50/50 route around here though, I am approaching the age where some of the hard route sections makes me let abit of p*** out and sometimes have to ask for a five. The clubman route is too easy for me to drop down at club trials so a 50/50 option at a hard route stool pusher trial is spot on for the likes of me and many in my position (and there are many)

My view on the routes these days are at club level, make the hard route as a hard route, setting out a 50/50 route takes no more work at all and should allow the better clubman riders move up a route and ease the clubman route so the novices can have a go instead of putting on a 4th or even 5th route. Many hard route riders could do the 50/50 route if they want a better challenge than the clubman route and a safer/easier one than the hard. Something else I have noticed is there are alot of 40-60 year olds out there who rarley compete these days as clubman is not challenging enough and the hard route way to challenging. I would like to see two routes only like many Nationals, but this would be a real tough day for many starting out on the modern trials bike and pre 65's/trail.

I can remember watching the Colmore (BTC then i think) years ago when Lampkin/Rathmal/Vesty were riding it, there was a climb at Saintbury with a huge run up, quite a few didnt get up, top lads did, this climb now would,nt even be considered today as a hard route section at club level as everyone would p*** it. The bikes these days are so good you need much much harder/dangerous things to go at, from my own point of view these harder sections is what puts off perfectly capable riders from doing the hard route unlike years ago when the climbs etc didnt look so big (expect they looked big from what you were riding). Yes there was a good chance you wouldnt get up or over something but unlikely you'd have a massive get off. The hard route for many has got to hard and dangerous for most to have a go at so new routes have evolved to cater for the majority.

Edited December 15, 2009 by The Addict

[ishy]

As for the original post, the problem that I see is that everybody wants a route to suit them, this just isn't possible to suit everybody and never will be! As my dad has pointed out to me many times, when he started riding in the 70's, there was one route and that was it! When I started riding in 91 there were usually 2 routes but the beginners route was just starting to filter through.

I'm with your dad on this one Dicky, and why I started the post in the first place, all the changes over the past thirty years have been to try and please more riders in the hope the sport will progress, statitics are telling me they should have left well alone.

We can't turn the clock back, but I do think it could be made a lot less complex than it is now.

[smalley250]

Ive riden in non-stop got 5 or 1 for stopping and seen experts stop 10 seconds or so only to clean. I hate the non-stop as its not achievable to police it correctly as most observer`s have not got a clue other than a 1 is a 1 and a 2 is as 2 etc. Also the sections ive seen in non-stop often have 120 degree turn a bike length then a climb, impossible so you stop dont dab and get a clean but dab and get 5.

[trialsnutterman]

The 1 mark for a stop rule was a joke down here as I have said earlier and finally the ACU realised this and went back to stop allowed

True it was hardly observed correctly down south after the first year but it did stop riders spending 10 / 20 seconds stood in front of a step deciding can I/can't I which is so boring to watch especially when your sat in a 15min que waiting to ride the section.

I personally liked the one for a stop the best when it was observed correctly but now it doesn't exist in this country I prefer the next best solution the full no stop.

I can see what you are saying about the arguing but there is still arguments going off at the British Champs, people going backwards for example that's still a five but riders will argue they didn't go back (even though there minder was shouting just bring it back a bit more), I guess the ACU's answer for that will be oh well they don't mark you a five for going backwards down south so we will get rid of that rule and let everyone go back. The sport needs rules and the riders need to be to show a bit more sportsmanship, can you imagine if a snooker player fouled then had a massive argument with the ref, it would be shocking but it happens at every British champs I've ever been to (that's most of them for the last 6 or 7 years), so the observing rules aren't ever going to change that, the ACU, Clark of the course, the spectators, the minders and most importantly the riders are the only ones who can stop the arguing, it needs to happen at the top of the sport so the younger riders watching there hero's don't think the only way you can win is by arguing every single mark. It would be nice to see someone like Dougie been given a clean say well actually I had a sneaky prod round the back of that tree.

[pistonbroke]

We keep getting the statement about riders argueing with observers , well thats easy to sort out . Make it that nobody is allowed to see the results untill the results are published and that includes asking the observer ! To be honest when i've observed at local trials , to get a correct score all I have to do is ask the rider what he thinks he got and plus it by at least one point !

Phil

[nigel dabster]

We keep getting the statement about riders argueing with observers , well thats easy to sort out . Make it that nobody is allowed to see the results untill the results are published and that includes asking the observer ! To be honest when i've observed at local trials , to get a correct score all I have to do is ask the rider what he thinks he got and plus it by at least one point !

Phil

doesn't work that well with punchcards.

[b40rt]

We keep getting the statement about riders argueing with observers , well thats easy to sort out . Make it that nobody is allowed to see the results untill the results are published and that includes asking the observer ! To be honest when i've observed at local trials , to get a correct score all I have to do is ask the rider what he thinks he got and plus it by at least one point !

Phil

just hate getting a six

[pistonbroke]

doesn't work that well with punchcards.

Doh ! Did'nt think of that , never mind back to the drawing board

just hate getting a six

I normally get funny looks when I give them too !

Phil

Edited December 17, 2009 by Pistonbroke

[trialsnutterman]

I think your right about not letting anybody know the results till they are completed, I think they were even thinking of scraping punch cards at world rounds for this very reason. Sorting the results out at the end of the day could take quite a while, I guess at world rounds it wouldn't be to much of a problem as they could probably do it electronicly due to there bigger budget and not so many sections but at a local national you going to have to wait.

[nigel dabster]

I think your right about not letting anybody know the results till they are completed, I think they were even thinking of scraping punch cards at world rounds for this very reason. Sorting the results out at the end of the day could take quite a while, I guess at world rounds it wouldn't be to much of a problem as they could probably do it electronicly due to there bigger budget and not so many sections but at a local national you going to have to wait.

Budget what budget?

[timp]

I can understand that in some circumstances hopping allowed rules would suit a 'flat field with a ditch' trial down south. No problem. Have the rule to suit the venue. But to take these rules to better venues is where the problem lies.

It spoils what can be good sections if riden non-stop. The worst trials are the ones using a tight turn to take marks when they have land to take marks without.

It is obvious that the rule problems originate from the North-South divide in the UK. Nowadays most southern riders are happy to head north to ride. Rarely will the northern riders go south. I think this was not necessarily the case before hopping rules came in. A fair number of southern national trials have disappeared over the years. Did the hopping rules lead to their demise?

I think trials will never find a common rule to suit all camps. All this arguing for one or the other is just putting off the inevitable. Therefore it would be best to split the sport in the UK.

All adverts and entry forms should state which rule is applicable at the event.

A 'non-stop British trials championship' should run alongside a 'stop allowed championship'.

Same at all centre events.

Let the riders decide the future.