Twinshocks! Stirring The Pot Again!

[dgraf]

I have seen a lot of post about modifying a twinshock bike to make it better for competition. I also understand that no one wants to see a modern bike(ie sherco) with a pair of shocks on it just so they can say it is a twinshock and compete in the twinshock class(sigh). I am riding a kt250 still stock enough to compete in ahrma events. But I can't for the life of me see how any modification on a twinshock bike can be that big of an advantage aside from disc brakes. A trick carb,300cc big bore kit,lowered pegs,hydraulic clutch,trick exhaust,tubless wheels,watercooling etc...do you really think modifying a twinshock will improve your score? I think not. I love my kt250 to death(and I'm sure I have some type of mental disorder).

but the fact is short of sticking it in a modern chassis it will still always be a heavy,less turning radius and less responsive suspension. In trials it will always be 90% rider and 10% bike.

I love all the ideas people come up with to do to there twinshock to make it better or easier to ride. I mean if someone has installed disc brakes on there twinshock doesn't make them a better rider or give them a one up on the rest of the field. it just looks trick. I rode a very asmatic TL 125 in the '70s.....but I didn't whine because it only made 4.8 hp and everyone else on 250's had 16 to 18 hp. cuz I still was able to pull off 1st place finishes with it! Let 'em modify the sh**t out of them, cuz it still wont help there riding ability!

p.s. I'm only whining because I'm entering my brutis in the modern expert class because the twinshock sections are not enough of a challenge anymore. okay everybody let the fight begin!

dgraf

[anyoldiron]

I am equally inept on a modern as on a twinshock in much the same way that Mr Bou would be beyond brilliant on a 4rt as on a Puch moped.I know for a fact that putting NBS shocks on my Greeves Scottish lightenend up that end of the bike and the modern footpeg is to my mind much more comfortable.O n the Beta I am always toying with the idea of flywheel weights,reeds,throttles etc,so what I am saying is that the biggest restriction is my ability.What I know the bike to be capable of does help in giving me confidence to attempt something,so any modification would probably increase my confidence(as well as bling measurement scale which seems fairly important on a trials bike).At the end of the day all bikes are lacking.There are easier ways of getting over a log.But thats not the point is it?I ride my bike because its fun and a challenge and makes me feel good.I add bits to it and take them away because I like doing mechanics and stuff. The great thing about trials for me is the challenge.Its between me and myself.I am not competing against you,but against myself and if I get less points than you thats good too.If I am better today than I was yesterday thats great.Christ what a ramble.

[gordo]

My take on this issue is that when these rules and classes were put in place, a decision had to be made as to what was considered Vintage. Back then, the decision was made to go with twin shocks and drum brakes. I think it is really that simple. No one even thought about the idea of conversions back at that time, because the "new" monoshock bikes and next, the disc brake bikes, were truly modern, when the rules were made.

Recently, on a different forum, I read where an enduro rider was asking how to convert a front disc system back to drums, so that he could race in a particular class. Not that much different then the twin shock debate, in my opinion. And it won't give him any advantage. But somewhere along the line, a rule was made. And at that time, disc brakes were a modern novelty.

Where I compete, in observed trials, the rule is simple. Twin shocks and drum brakes. So a 1960's machine is competing against a 1980's TLR. Obviously there are differences between the two bikes, but they do both have twin shocks and drum brakes. In my case, the TLR beats me every time. But the truth is. If he and I switched bikes, he would still beat me with my early 70's machine, because he is a better rider. And I think that is the case most of the time. I think some people truly enjoy playing with their bikes, to make them different, or what they perceive to be better. But chances are, those same people are just bored and probably would be better than most on any bike they rode.

[micm]

Some riders I have seen have fitted twin shocks to quite rare early monoshock bikes which I think is a bit of a shame.

[tonybroad]

there will always be those who 'push' the rules - some pre-65's are a joke with custom lightweight frames, japanese pistons and cranks and heavily modified porting to suit, they are as far removed from the orginal bike as could be but there will always be people like this in any sport, that's when rules need to become tighter, to discourage misrepresentation of the rules

i own a beamish suzuki twinshock and a modern sherco and love em both because i like to see how the technology has changed but the suzuki can still do the business

just my opinion

tony

[twinshocked]

A well written set of rules for bike mods is all that is needed for any TwinShock series.

Let guys modify their bikes with common sense : modern tires, shocks, fork internal mods, porting, lightened flywheels, brake linings, handlebars and controls, modifies peg location and geometry etc...

A well prepared Twinshock is much nicer to ride that one that is 100% original and yes it will make a difference in your results. If 2 decent riders are close in ability and one is on a well prepared bike and the other is on a totally stock bike the one on the prepped bike will win.

Maybe there should be a 100% stock class with no mods for those that want it. Would you run old hard tires?

A Mono converted to TS is absurd and should not be allowed. An Air cooled Mono class would be good. Lots of those bikes out there.

[malcra]

A well written set of rules for bike mods is all that is needed for any TwinShock series.

Don't think it needs to be that hard; unlike the pre-65 eligibility discussion, the situation with Twinshocks is more straightforward. A bike that

1, was originally fitted with twinshocks, not a monoshock, from the manufacturer

2. Drum brakes (all tw/sh where drum braked bikes)

3. Cable clutch and brakes

There are some _interesting_ front fork modifications (Beta rather than Betor forks), but they aren't too common. You don't need to say air-cooled. I've seen the RTL twinshock and its obvious as is the Fantic conversions. Putting a TY250 mono front end on a Majesty is not really right, nor is putting in the later engine.

In my case, my Beta TR240 shares the same engine as the TR-32, the monoshock that was available at the same time as the twinshock. Same engine, brakes, swingarm etc. Putting a later (better) TR-34 engine in the twinshock wouldn't be right, even though its a better engine and there are lots more spares around.

Okay, maybe its harder that I thought. I'm just in the process of restoring a twinshock motocross bike and I want it to be pre74 eligible, which isn't just about the year it seems, but also things like suspension travel etc

Edited January 13, 2010 by malcra

[mattylad]

I also think you are missing the fact that even back in the 60's and 70's. The efforts Sammy Miller put in to his Ariel were at the forefront of technology of the time. Where I grew up the Bultacos ridden by Dave Thorpe were a lot better than the standard offerings (so was the rider!!!). The factory Suzuki of Nigel Birkett, Yamahas of Mick Andrews were both mega trick and so I asssume were the bikes from other manufacturers.

Remember often very small changes in geometry, riding position, suspension set-up, caburation or engine porting can have some pretty dramatic effects both positive or negative depending upon the rider. What suits one rider may not suit another.

It true that a good rider will beat a poor rider no matter how much cash the bad rider has thrown at his machine. Equal riders will often set bikes up in different ways to suit their morphology and riding style so what is acceptable?

Remember modifications keep people employed and cash comes into the sport, riders keep riding and events keep getting put on.

A pristine rebuild of a standard bike would not get ridden as its value would need to be preserved (and they are just not as much fun). The avaliability of new spares means they will get ridden as they can be rebuilt.

Just get out and enjoy riding. It is you against the course, the results are only a comparison of how you have ridden on the day compared to others.

In any event human nature being what it is we will always have those who bend, stretch or totally break the rules! Which poor scruiteneer will have the knowledge to pass FAIR judgement on what is acceptable and then have the task of turning someone away.

If riders themselves were sufficiently honest most bikes would be in the "specials" class anyway.

Conclusion, anything but the most basic set of rules are pointless and may the deepest pockets or well stuffed wallet win!

[dgraf]

props to mattylad! Didn't even cross my mind about all of the pro riders(mick andrews sammy miller etc..) somehow I just don't think their bikes were stock! now what does everyone say about the twinshock rules!

dgraf

[hondanut]

i ride a honda tlr 200, the mods i have made are mostly safety related, i am quite a small bloke and because of ilness i tire easily, so my main mods are to try to control it better, i.e. lose some of the bike wieght, make the brakes work better, better foot rests, higher bars, that is about it.

sometimes i do very well, other times realy rubbish.

if a bike is too tricked up, then all well and good, but it is not quite the spirit of it, you could give them more points to start with, there is a chap who sometimes rides in the same trials as me, he has a converted mono ty yamaha, it also has some trick engine mods, but he could and does ride it better than i ever could, so realy he should be riding against modern monos, more of a challenge i reckon, i dont realy see what he gets out of it, up against us oldies with old, heavy, less powerfull bikes.

if you want to win, you get the best bike you can afford, and realy practice hard.

[nigel dabster]

Don't think it needs to be that hard; unlike the pre-65 eligibility discussion, the situation with Twinshocks is more straightforward. A bike that

1, was originally fitted with twinshocks, not a monoshock, from the manufacturer

2. Drum brakes (all tw/sh where drum braked bikes)

3. Cable clutch and brakes

There are some _interesting_ front fork modifications (Beta rather than Betor forks), but they aren't too common. You don't need to say air-cooled. I've seen the RTL twinshock and its obvious as is the Fantic conversions. Putting a TY250 mono front end on a Majesty is not really right, nor is putting in the later engine.

In my case, my Beta TR240 shares the same engine as the TR-32, the monoshock that was available at the same time as the twinshock. Same engine, brakes, swingarm etc. Putting a later (better) TR-34 engine in the twinshock wouldn't be right, even though its a better engine and there are lots more spares around.

Okay, maybe its harder that I thought. I'm just in the process of restoring a twinshock motocross bike and I want it to be pre74 eligible, which isn't just about the year it seems, but also things like suspension travel etc

Think they are a good set of rules but how fair are the Fantics that use the much later and more powerful engines, is that right that two "winners" in last years normadale use these engines?

[axulsuv]

A well written set of rules for bike mods is all that is needed for any TwinShock series.

Let guys modify their bikes with common sense : modern tires, shocks, fork internal mods, porting, lightened flywheels, brake linings, handlebars and controls, modifies peg location and geometry etc...

A well prepared Twinshock is much nicer to ride that one that is 100% original and yes it will make a difference in your results. If 2 decent riders are close in ability and one is on a well prepared bike and the other is on a totally stock bike the one on the prepped bike will win.

Maybe there should be a 100% stock class with no mods for those that want it. Would you run old hard tires?

A Mono converted to TS is absurd and should not be allowed. An Air cooled Mono class would be good. Lots of those bikes out there.

I'd have to agree ! My 240 is about as trick as a 240 can get and still be a 240 ... I've watched a few different pro class riders ride my bike and after they get a few minutes to get used to her , proceed to do things I never thought possible on a 1983 twinshock . And every time it happens , It boosts my confidence greatly ,'cause I know the only thing holding me back is my daft riding ! I've just got to practice and learn how to tell the old girl the right moves ... But it is still a fun learning curve !!!!

[marky g]

I must admit I would like to convert a TY mono into a twin shock, I'd like the challenge and I quite fancy a twin shock ride but without paying the silly prices that decent twinshock bikes are fetching these days.

How would I get on if I wanted to ride a converted mono in say a twinshock series?....is there a 'modified class'??.......I don't want to get into a 'is it right or wrong' argument...I just like the idea of the challenge and want a good days sport with my mate's.

I've seen some pics of a converted Yam mono on the net but for the life of me I can't find them!

[jon v8]

I must admit I would like to convert a TY mono into a twin shock, I'd like the challenge and I quite fancy a twin shock ride but without paying the silly prices that decent twinshock bikes are fetching these days.

How would I get on if I wanted to ride a converted mono in say a twinshock series?....is there a 'modified class'??.......I don't want to get into a 'is it right or wrong' argument...I just like the idea of the challenge and want a good days sport with my mate's.

I've seen some pics of a converted Yam mono on the net but for the life of me I can't find them!

Arrggh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[andy m]

I've seen some pics of a converted Yam mono on the net but for the life of me I can't find them!