Is There Still Any Love For The 4rt?

[4ourtea]

I still get a buzz from riding my mine - it's a great bike even if it isn't the lightest or cheapest. As said earlier, quality doesn't come cheaply.

In the SSDT you'll find it is a bike that won't let you down, and that keeps you smiling I can tell you - in all that unbelievable weather last year, when 2t bikes were boiling up, sucking in water, etc., my 08'er was superb - no problems at all. Tight turns might be tricky but point it in a vaguely straight line and it will take anything a section has to offer - provided the rider is up to it of course!!

As for Sandifords (and people are singling out Caroline in particular) - why has everyone got the knives out for them??? Don't tell me you've never had a shop assistant have an off day in Tesco or Asda and give you short shrift or terse answer? Of course you have...

Turbo - did you have frequent dealings with Ms Sandiford then??

Whatever the issues people might have, it needs to be remembered what that family business has provided to the trials riding community since Jim set it up all those years ago. In recent years, Montesa has been a "one-model" business (virtually) and making a success of a business based around one model (the 250cc 315R 1996 to 2004 and 250cc 4RT 2005 to 2009) whilst most of your competitors have been flogging 50, 80, 125, 200, 250, 270/280/290 capacity bikes to every age from kids to codgers takes some doing. Give 'em a break!

I for one hope that they do come back in some shape or form - Montesa won't be the same without the name "Sandiford" being attached to the brand. As for the SSDT, I'm not in Scotland this year but I'm sure that the parc ferme will be a poorer place for the absence of Sandifords -

[toofasttim]

Sandifords are in liquidation, all their stock and fixed assets are on an auction site at the moment.

Oh. I was aware that Sanifords had dumped the importedship and were continuing with the spares but I didn't know they were in liquidation. Is this just the Mont side or all of Sandifords (assuming they were different businesses) ? It would be a terrible shame if they were to disappear.

[tt5th]

I have to say in the fairness of having both sides of an argument - Since I got my 315 a couple of years ago I've had nothing but faultless, helpful, knowledgeable service from Sandifords and I am gutted to see them go. I do hope Caroline (I must admit i've never spoken to her...) gets this new business off the ground (and sorts the website - no search and no categorising by model??) but other than that I'm not sure who I'm going to get my spares off now...

[nigel dabster]

Oh. I was aware that Sanifords had dumped the importedship and were continuing with the spares but I didn't know they were in liquidation. Is this just the Mont side or all of Sandifords (assuming they were different businesses) ? It would be a terrible shame if they were to disappear.

Sandifords didn't dump the importership it was taken away from them as was the honda solus and husqvarna dealerships.

Whether caroline was nice to you or not, I only had one contact with her and she wasn't very nice it would be easy to say hard cheese to them all, but as stated above Martin does seem to be a good guy and to see such a good marque floundering for whatever reason is sad. Yes she could have done more, had more riders, promoted the brand better, been more approachable, but at the end of the day if the punters , or at least not enough of them, don't want the bike what can an importer do. I had a 4rt and loved it, but then struggled with it the next day. I remember a very poor showing at the bvm test day a few years back and overheard a conversation about "commercial viability" then so its been coming a long while. I also rode one at a dealership in Spain before they even landed here first time which may have said something way back then. To end up with so much on an auction is a sad day indeed.

The quality and reliability are great pluses but many have had them including me and now are riding others, the trials market is shrinking with the recession and they are at the expensive end. Whether the emergence of Greeves at

Edited March 26, 2010 by bigfoot

[lee harris]

We are of course talking about HONDA montesa. The emphasis is the Japanese side of things.......Think of the way that Toyota handled their issues in the states recentl.y...not very well. The arogant position of being number one will cause them to suffer for a long time. Honda also???

Yes the importer position was taken away from them...possibly because they werent sellin enough????? Maybe the receivership is the only natural way to go after such a step?

Honda always did want to import bikeso only via THEIR IMPORTER ie Honda UK and not anyone else. They stuck with Sanifords for so long because roadbikes aint trials bikes. Different field all topgether. It was/is the same on mainland europe but was forced through early becvause the sales here is low anyway. The UK market is no2 in the world behind spain. Not easy to roll over.

Sandifords were maybe offered the position of dealer or sales outlet and may have turned that down (purely my own assumption) but at the end of the day it is not the importer who caused the issue as the PRICING is set by the Manufacturer.

Long before the global finance crisis, HONDA increased the price because the EUROs they were making as PROFIT didnt turn into enough YEN. No relationship to the costs incurred in making the bike in spain. (Also EUROs) That was IMO the step on the slippery slope. The crisis came and they increased prices AGAIN!!!! The long and the short of it is that they have priced themselves out of the market. GG and Sherco came up with low cost bikes to react to the crisis, Xispa was already there although not a major issue. Honda thought that the quality thing would pull them through but it dosnt stick.

IMO the Montesas, lets say from 315 inwards were always very high quality if not a little overweight. Always a good bike for SSDT or joe public because things like stators or gearboxes didnt give up whilst looking at em.

But with spendable income down by 30% this year (dont I know it) people are having to spend less. Keep what they have or buy summit cheaper.

The 4RT may re emerge IF and when the 2 strokes are killed off but maybe the comission boss who decides these things no long works on the side for Honda.......?

Honda have to realise that the best engineering in the world wont win prices if pepole cant afford it (RR, Bentley, Honda CBX 6 cylinder???)

[manx2day]

Speaking of loosing the dealership...here on the Isle of Man the Honda dealerships have merged so that the cars, bikes, lawn mowers etc are under one roof and not spread out. I believe this came about as a Honda UK decision (or higher). I believe it was UK wide, not just for the Isle of Man. This would be the most likely outcome as to why Sandifords lost the dealership and subsequently enough custom to keep going as a business. I know that they became a Gas Gas dealer (for a very short time) but it obviously wasn't enough and from whats been said here already, Sandifords have been in trouble for a while.

As for the bikes, i've never been a fan of the Montesa's. I just don't like the look of them and the feel of them when riding one. Also the price is a big factor in not getting one. I know that 4 strokes are extremely reliable and probably worth the money but, i just don't see the need for that price. Surely if they were priced closer to that of Gas Gas, Sherco, Beta etc they would sell a lot more. To the best of my knowledge there are only atleast a handful of 4rt's on the Island. The bikes to have are GG's or the Beat Evo.

[eddie_lejeune]

talk about this great build quality the mont has, it cant be any better than beta's which i have ridden for years with absolutely minimal maintenance, the biggest problem with people and their bikes is that they work and them and they actually dont know what they're doing

Also, if a spares business is being started up why have all the spares up for auction

[b40rt]

Speaking of loosing the dealership...here on the Isle of Man the Honda dealerships have merged so that the cars, bikes, lawn mowers etc are under one roof and not spread out. I believe this came about as a Honda UK decision (or higher). I believe it was UK wide, not just for the Isle of Man.

About 20 years ago Honda refused to have cars and bikes under one roof, the Edinburgh dealer Chatham's had to get ride of the bikes by moving them to a new premises about 2 miles away. Changed times.

Older but wiser ?

[scraggydog64]

I've just gave my 05 4RT to my son and bought an 09. Yes are a bit heavier but I love them. I feel like I am cheating I get that much grip. However some folk just can't get on with them and don't like them. Each to their own. Having none entered in the British Championship probably doessn't help the popularity issue either. Realisticly the Monts on old(ish) design and things are moving on.

As for Sandifords I've always had good service and advice. I think Honda are hard task masters to their dealers in terms of sales etc.

Had a go on an 2010 Gas Gas 250, brilliant bike but too flighty for my limited ability, prefer the Mont. Again each to there own.

I find the Mont ages well. Our 05 is as nice to ride as the 09. At this years Scott there were loads of 05 Monts. Not many 05 2 strokes.

Scragg

[gizza5]

it cant be any better than beta's which i have ridden for years with absolutely minimal maintenance

Move this to ''Kenny the Rooster'' You gotta be kidding

Any of the 2 strokes need plenty of Care, Attention and Spanners (I have had and ridden them) and yes they will be fine, but to say the Mont can't be better........................Ok

Would I sell or get rid of mine, NO!!! 2006 bought new ridden 2 x SSDT's most Nationals and most weekends and spent nothing on it apart from general running parts, yes its heavy, but hell so am I, would I ride a 2 stroke better, maybe, would I want to NO?

Cost since 2006 spread over the years is way less than buying, selling and replacing parts on a 2 stroke...........Fact

Caroline and Martin will be missed in the SSDT Parc Ferme, but Caroline has said she will be there or stuck on the side of Ben Nevis?? All the importers do a fantastic job up there and work long hours during the event, but come on Caroline ''Easy Life'' or what? every day nowt up with the bikes as they are too reliable so no major spannering = No stress, few time cards to work out and coffe to drink but it still won't be the same.

Viva Montesa

[motovintage]

talk about this great build quality the mont has, it cant be any better than beta's which i have ridden for years with absolutely minimal maintenance, the biggest problem with people and their bikes is that they work and them and they actually dont know what they're doing

Also, if a spares business is being started up why have all the spares up for auction

your right Eddie abought Beta's build quality, just as good as Mont's I've owned both, you can drop either bike off a cliff and start it up and drive it away, believe me I've done it enough times, my next bike will be a Beta since they still offer a 2T, I'll never own a fuel injected 4T dirt bike in any form, too damn expensive to repair the fuel injection or having to deal with valve train

possibly you don't have enough experience with other brands to know the difference when people are harping on Build Quality of the Mont's as compared to other Spanish brands

[cleanorbust]

I went along to a 4RT test day in North Yorkshire three or four years ago. My usual bike is a Sherco, and I couldn't make anything of the Montesa. It was raining and the test was on a grassy hillside; just kept spinning out all over the place. Wayne Braybrook was on hand to show what the bike could do and his comment was "you've got to ride it with extra care, it doesn't grip that well."

Thanks very much, I thought, that's all I needed to know. Still riding Sherco.

[jimmyl]

If you've ridden a 4rt once and not liked it then you have no right to comment here - fact!!!.

If you've owned one for 6 months or more and don't like it or had had bad experience then carry on adding to this post.

Having ridden Monts relatively successful over the last 10 years plus, the 4rt is a different beast and you need to own one to make any valid comment.

They are maybe not the best to hop and flick but given a proper trial they are still very good - best bike i have ridden in SSDT. Flattered my ability!!!!.

Trouble is lots of people think they are Raga or Dabil and buy world champ class bikes when they are club champ riders at best - I think the demands are like chalk and cheese. John Lampkin has said the 200cc Beta is probably a superb clubman bike but probably sells few -the 4rt I thinks is a bit like this. Set it up right, learn to ride it and you have a very competitive reliable trials bike - just not fashionable

But I could be bias

[the addict]

If you've ridden a 4rt once and not liked it then you have no right to comment here - fact!!!.

If you've owned one for 6 months or more and don't like it or had had bad experience then carry on adding to this post.

Having ridden Monts relatively successful over the last 10 years plus, the 4rt is a different beast and you need to own one to make any valid comment.

They are maybe not the best to hop and flick but given a proper trial they are still very good - best bike i have ridden in SSDT. Flattered my ability!!!!.

Trouble is lots of people think they are Raga or Dabil and buy world champ class bikes when they are club champ riders at best - I think the demands are like chalk and cheese. John Lampkin has said the 200cc Beta is probably a superb clubman bike but probably sells few -the 4rt I thinks is a bit like this. Set it up right, learn to ride it and you have a very competitive reliable trials bike - just not fashionable

But I could be bias

Spot on Jim, I would,nt ride any other bike better and certainly would'nt enjoy as much. To many people bought 4rt's, struggled with the weight and grip and sold them within weeks, you need to be patient with the Mont, I get more grip on mine than any two stroke I've ever owned and can hop about just as well as the rev3. Give the Mont a good go, at least 6months of riding, you will get used to how it grips and how to adapt to the weight.

I have heard time and time again the 4rt doesnt grip????????????????????/ yes it does just learn how it does it, its not like a 2 stroke, I,m sure the spikeyone will confirm my Mont grips like a tractor on even the slippiest of climbs

And Eddy, you are talking B*****ks again fella, the Beta is no-where near the mont for build quality, I've owned 6 Betas so should know

Edited March 26, 2010 by The Addict

[eddie_lejeune]

I have owned 13 betas so I know plenty about their build quality- if these bikes are so good why are we not all riding them I dont see all of lampkins stuff up for auction