Where Are All The Classic Entries?

[pete_scorpa3]

I hope it p****s down like last year - made for a really challenging event in the slippy conditions

Yes it nearly did me in, I was the Clerk of the Course and opening the course, (and riding the sections for no award) on my DRZ400. Due to the heavy rain I eased 20 or more sections as I went around. I was completely shattered by the end of the day.

I'm setting a few out this year, I spend more time thinking about the sidecar route than anything else. Can they get through that gap? Do they like to go up to the left or to the right? Will they stop at the bottom?

Fine weather makes it so much easier to set out.

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy's.

Perhaps the time has come for change, before it is to late. And all bikes with a British heritage, whether built in a British factory or replicas of the same are discarded totally, in the favor of Spanish and Japanese Twin shocks.

We Need two British classes ,one for so called pre 65 traditional bikes, which includes rigid's, easy easy route, and a class for Brit-Shocks, up until 1970, which should take care of the replicas etc, with sections that are taxing enough to make riders work for a win. But not over the top difficult.

Or something completely different like this http://www.classictrialsshow.com/

Regards Charlie.

[trickymicky]

Its certainly confused me, and is why i didnt enter on a pre unit. The regs for the Sammy Miller series say Pre Units on the hard route go in the British Replica's class, yet now,after the closing date there seems to be a class on the hard route for Pre Unit bikes?

[pete_scorpa3]

Its certainly confused me, and is why i didnt enter on a pre unit. The regs for the Sammy Miller series say Pre Units on the hard route go in the British Replica's class, yet now,after the closing date there seems to be a class on the hard route for Pre Unit bikes?

Yes, I'm not sure what has happened there, I have a feeling that there has been a clerical error with the classes and I appologise if that is the case, I will speak to the powers that be and get back to you.

If you feel that you have entered in the wrong class for any reason, it is a simple case of calling Richard the secretary and he will make the necessary changes prior to the entry list being published.

I hope this helps.

Pete

[woody]

As regards the entry list I think all Richard has done is miss of the British Replica part of the class name for class 9.

I do think though that the classes don't seem well thought out this year. The class 'British Replica and Pre-unit Springer' is the wrong name in my opinion. 'Specials', meaning non-standard components fitted was a better description. The way it is titled means ANY pre-unit springer has to go in this class, even if it was unmodified - assuming someone is mad enough to ride an unmodified Pre-unit on the hard course.

Replicas surely include all Faber, Mills or otherwise framed BSA machines, Cub replicas, James and FB replicas and Ariel, Matchless, Ajs with replica frames. However, the only bikes that ever seem to end up in the Replica class are any Pre-units plus one BSA. All the 2-strokes and other 4-stroke unit replicas end up in the 2-stroke or Unit classes. I don't think it is right that Pre-units should be in a class with small Replica framed 2-strokes, Cubs and C15. Seems a bit unfair, I think they should go back to having the Pre-unit hard route class as only modified bikes are realistically going to compete on the hard route.

If I entered on my BSA for example which class should it go in. It has a non-standard front end but it is a C15 frame not a replica. I'd quite happily go in the Replica class if I had to but it isn't actually a replica...

[trickymicky]

As regards the entry list I think all Richard has done is miss of the British Replica part of the class name for class 9.

I do think though that the classes don't seem well thought out this year. The class 'British Replica and Pre-unit Springer' is the wrong name in my opinion. 'Specials', meaning non-standard components fitted was a better description. The way it is titled means ANY pre-unit springer has to go in this class, even if it was unmodified - assuming someone is mad enough to ride an unmodified Pre-unit on the hard course.

Replicas surely include all Faber, Mills or otherwise framed BSA machines, Cub replicas, James and FB replicas and Ariel, Matchless, Ajs with replica frames. However, the only bikes that ever seem to end up in the Replica class are any Pre-units plus one BSA. All the 2-strokes and other 4-stroke unit replicas end up in the 2-stroke or Unit classes. I don't think it is right that Pre-units should be in a class with small Replica framed 2-strokes, Cubs and C15. Seems a bit unfair, I think they should go back to having the Pre-unit hard route class as only modified bikes are realistically going to compete on the hard route.

If I entered on my BSA for example which class should it go in. It has a non-standard front end but it is a C15 frame not a replica. I'd quite happily go in the Replica class if I had to but it isn't actually a replica...

That sums things up exactly.

This event has always suited Pre units even on the main route, with sections pretty much as they were in the day,so its a shame that a class which is diminishing year on year anyway,has been further discouraged by the new rules.

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy's,

The ACU have got it wrong, and seem to have there heads in the sand, Or perhaps they have NO interest in keeping Classic British trials bikes, competing?

I think they are just going with the flow,and to most of them it is just a day job. There is no passion for British bikes anymore?

Regards Charlie.

[hrc1]

Pete,

Pleased to see a Class X! All I want is a day out on the bike (Pampera) not concerned with championships etc.

The Millers series hard route is usually spot on for the keener trail bike riders.

Mike

[trickymicky]

Hi Guy's,

The ACU have got it wrong, and seem to have there heads in the sand, Or perhaps they have NO interest in keeping Classic British trials bikes, competing?

I think they are just going with the flow,and to most of them it is just a day job. There is no passion for British bikes anymore?

Regards Charlie.

They have got it wrong Charlie, and i suspect we will never find out whose bright idea it was, unlike when they get things right, and subsequently crawl out of the woodwork to take the credit. I know that you,along with others spectate at this event, and i'm sure its the pre units (on the hard route) in particular which you go to see.

Good luck with the Stoneleigh event, by the way, i'm sure its going to be a big success, i cant get,but i will make sure the Ariel is there!

[woody]

Hi Guy's,

The ACU have got it wrong, and seem to have there heads in the sand, Or perhaps they have NO interest in keeping Classic British trials bikes, competing?

I think they are just going with the flow,and to most of them it is just a day job. There is no passion for British bikes anymore?

Regards Charlie.

I agree it is a strange class structure this year but it isn't responsible for the low entries. All the other classes are the same but the entries have been low for a number of years. Can't blame the ACU, the riders just don't enter. 2 routes to pick from so no excuse about too hard. Previously there has always been a Pre-unit class on the hard route and it is on average filled with the same 3 entrants, so it's never been well supported. There are actually more Pre-units on the hard route in this year's Sam Cooper than I can previously recall in the series as a whole but memory may be playing tricks. No-one rides a standard Pre-unit on the hard route and never has as far as I know. Someone local to me has a HT5 in period/original trim and I wouldn't even want to ride it up the road, never mind a trial.

You definitely can't accuse the ACU of favouring twinshocks as there is bugger all for twinshocks outside of the Miller/Normandale series in terms of a National championship. In both of those series they have been support classes for some time and were allowed into the Miller series only due to low British bike numbers to help the events survive. Whereas twinshocks have no single genre championship, British bikes have quite a few events between the AMCA and ACU - PJ1 championship, Pre65 Scottish, Rickman Briitish Bike championship, Yorkshire Classic, BMCA in the Midlands. No twinshocks allowed in any of those events.

There will inevitably be a decline in the number of Pre-units. Riders who rode them back in the day are getting on now and many just won't be capable of handling 300lbs of heavyweight bike through sections any more. More likely they'll switch to lighter bikes, Bantams etc. The next generation have no interest in riding an original Pre-unit and the cost of building a modernised one is horrific, so my guess is they will suffer a natural decline along with riders ageing.

Still doesn't explain why the other British bike classes are poorly supported though.

[trickymicky]

I agree it is a strange class structure this year but it isn't responsible for the low entries. All the other classes are the same but the entries have been low for a number of years. Can't blame the ACU, the riders just don't enter. 2 routes to pick from so no excuse about too hard. Previously there has always been a Pre-unit class on the hard route and it is on average filled with the same 3 entrants, so it's never been well supported. There are actually more Pre-units on the hard route in this year's Sam Cooper than I can previously recall in the series as a whole but memory may be playing tricks. No-one rides a standard Pre-unit on the hard route and never has as far as I know. Someone local to me has a HT5 in period/original trim and I wouldn't even want to ride it up the road, never mind a trial.

You definitely can't accuse the ACU of favouring twinshocks as there is bugger all for twinshocks outside of the Miller/Normandale series in terms of a National championship. In both of those series they have been support classes for some time and were allowed into the Miller series only due to low British bike numbers to help the events survive. Whereas twinshocks have no single genre championship, British bikes have quite a few events between the AMCA and ACU - PJ1 championship, Pre65 Scottish, Rickman Briitish Bike championship, Yorkshire Classic, BMCA in the Midlands. No twinshocks allowed in any of those events.

There will inevitably be a decline in the number of Pre-units. Riders who rode them back in the day are getting on now and many just won't be capable of handling 300lbs of heavyweight bike through sections any more. More likely they'll switch to lighter bikes, Bantams etc. The next generation have no interest in riding an original Pre-unit and the cost of building a modernised one is horrific, so my guess is they will suffer a natural decline along with riders ageing.

Still doesn't explain why the other British bike classes are poorly supported though.

There were 7 Pre units on the hard route last year,admittedly a lot short of the 32 at the first event in 1979,followed by 37 the following year.

[woody]

I was trying to remember how long the series had been running, I only go back about 8 years as I never had a Brit bike before then. Didn't remember it went back that far though. Were trail bikes part of the original series or were they a later add-on due to falling entries? Seem to have it in memory they weren't and were introduced to bolster the entry in the distant past.

30-odd Pre-units is a lot but maybe echos my thoughts that 30 years on, many of those riders couldn't handle them any more. I seem to remember from the Sebac back then that the only trick looking bike belonged to Terry Wright although I've no idea what the actual spec was. Virtually all others were pretty standard, it was before the 'modernising' took hold

[trickymicky]

I was trying to remember how long the series had been running, I only go back about 8 years as I never had a Brit bike before then. Didn't remember it went back that far though. Were trail bikes part of the original series or were they a later add-on due to falling entries? Seem to have it in memory they weren't and were introduced to bolster the entry in the distant past.

30-odd Pre-units is a lot but maybe echos my thoughts that 30 years on, many of those riders couldn't handle them any more. I seem to remember from the Sebac back then that the only trick looking bike belonged to Terry Wright although I've no idea what the actual spec was. Virtually all others were pretty standard, it was before the 'modernising' took hold

1979 was the first year-it was a closed circuit trial in those days at Camp and Warren. There were only 3 classes-

Pre 65 Four stroke under 340cc

Pre 65 Four stroke over 340cc

Pre 65 Two stroke

I seem to remember that the classes were not too popular, as it allowed BSA B40's (at 343cc) into the big capacity four stroke class,not what was intended. So,a couple of years later,1981,the capacity threshold was raised to 345cc.

All the bikes were pretty standard. On the Ariels,Ariel Leader hubs were about it..

I think Trail bikes started in 1992.

[pete_scorpa3]

Just out of interest the past winners of the SCUJ read a bit like a who's who of classic trials.

I don't know what the classes were, but Jon Bliss won the first Union Jack Trophy in 1979. Mick Ash won the Englebach Cup and J.Delahay the Two Stroke Cup.

The Sam Cooper Trophy was introduced in 1990 and was won by Terry Savery. The Sidecar Cup was won by J.Budgen/J.Dummer and the Specials/Twinshock by B.Messenger.

In 1992 the first trail bike win was taken by Mark Kemp.

Certain names keep appearing on the winners lists, often in different classes.

M.Ash - Nine times

P.Robson - Six times

N.Draper - Five times

T.Davis - Five times

D.Sherbourne/S.Sherbourne - Six times

G.Howe - Five times

R.Percival - Five times

A.Taylor - Five times

Plus a number of other past winners like.

S.Saunders

M.Grant

J.Wigg

R.Faulkner

P.Gaunt

P.Carson

C.Dommet

D.Spurgeon

M.Wilmore

[pete_scorpa3]

Below I have copied some extracts from an email which I received today from Nick Bridges which may interest followers of this thread.

Nick is a long serving member of the Stratford Club as was his father Dennis, and is a far better authority on the subject of the Union Jack Trial than I.

Interestingly, Mick Ash rode the very first UJ in 1979 and has been one of

a select band of those who still ride having competed in the very first.

Also, I was tidying up a bit over the weekend and I came across a program

from the first event. And from memory, in

that first running of it, there included a really wide selection of

machinery that would be worth a small fortune now - and a large number of

machines covering the majority of the popular British Bikes, not just the

one or 2 types we see today. On the day, we had a scrutineers award that

Ron Morris handed out (that was given to an immaculate and very original

350 AJS). Talking of original, the biggest modification on machines for

that first event was the changing of the four ply Dunlop tyre !

In setting out those early trials, they were always made with the bike

bikes in mind and the simple question of whether they could get round a

tight corner or over a root or step -and often involved quite a few visits

upto glorious Camp. The bottom line was if the pre unit bikes couldnt get

round or over then it didnt go in - or instance, the section up Camp ditch,

was literally that, just straight up the ditch, no fannying in and out ! I

think that early premise stood the test of time and made the trial and the

club the success it deserved.

I would also add that pre65 trials changed with the increasingly popularity

of the Scottish as it become essential to have a trick bike to be at the

top end of results, and this ambition to win 'at all costs' filtered

through to other trials and suddenly those on more standard machines were

being left behind by 'modernised' machinery.