Section difficulty...how should we set them?

[ridgrunr]

Ok,

After reading all the great posts in the topics about how to save our sport in the U.S., it looks to me that three main obtsacles have emerged.

#1 The economy,which we have no control over.

#2 Distance. Not much that we can do about that either Heck, Utah alone is 1.5 times the size of England, 89,000 sq miles, compared to 50,000 sq miles. As far as I know, there is not another Trials rider within 100 miles of where I am sitting in my kitchen.

So, if a rider is going to make that 3-4 hour one way drive to get to an event, how do we ensure (as much as humanly possible) that he has a good enough time to want to go to the next one?

#3 Section difficulty. This is one thing we can control (sort of). How do we make our sections consistently fun, challenging and non-lethal?

The following is taken right out of our club by-laws:

7B. The Trials Marshal will test rideability of the class lines by the following means: (On Lower classes ensure there are adequate "dabs" on both sides).

1. Novice - ride sections sitting down, 1st gear, no clutch, no brake.

2. Sportsman - ride sections standing up, 1st gear, no clutch.

3. Intermediate - no hopping or trick riding.

4. Advanced - minimal hopping and trick riding.

5. Expert - hopping or trick riding encouraged in at least 50% of sections.

6. Champ - discretion with respect to safety of bike and rider should be used on large obstacles.

That's it. Not much guidance there.

What do I add or subtract from the above section setting guidelines?

What I'm looking for is the mechanics of setting a section.

What's the minimum width that a section should be?

How many obstacles should there be in each section?

What point spread to shoot for?

How do you deal with class splits?

How does a guy set sections for classes that are harder than he can ride?

There's dozens of questions.

I'm sure I'll get a bunch of smart assed responses. Already have, from folks who don't understand what we are up against in this country. But I'm also hoping to get something that I can use to help those new Trials Marshals learn how to set a decent Trials.

I'm not saying that any of you need to ever incorporate any of the suggestions that are offered into anything that you do. I'm just looking for something that I can use. Something I can send to the new guys who are trying to figure out how to set sections.

Help me come up with some guidelines that I can take to the annual club meeting in two weeks, that can help us describe how to come up with those consistently fun, challenging and non-lethal sections for next year, that might help keep the riders coming back.

Edited November 17, 2010 by Ridgrunr

[motofire]

I'll be watching this thread closely since this is an issue my club faxes also.

Really though, what you guys have in place looks pretty good. The only thing I might add is the use of full lock turns not used in the lower levels.

[sirhc]

You have more than we have in our rule book. We have the same basic class structure here in SoCal.

I don't believe you can have it written in the rule book how hard or easy sections should be. Even if it was possible a good section designer knows the riders that are currently riding in the events and tries to build sections to suit all of them. I know after every trial I go through the results, look at everybody's overall scores and see what sections people had a hard time with. If it was too hard or too easy I can now adjust my sections for the next trial.

Just a couple of examples, right now we have one class that the caliber of riders in it aren't as good as they where the last couple of years in my opinion and all have been scoring high. For the next event we should easy up on them a little (not too much) When the scores start dropping too low we can then increase the difficulty. Another extreme example is our top class. Two of our regular riders will be riding the Pro class at the nationals and the other is a good national expert so those sections have gotten a lot harder than they where a few years ago when the top rider was a mid pack national expert.

You'll keep the riders happy if you build sections that suit them. I don't think that can be written in the rule book.

Edited November 17, 2010 by sirhc

[jse]

When I set up a club Trial, I usually try to shoot for the average skilled rider losing one point per section. So a three-loop, eight section Trial will see a good rider having an average score of 24 points lost. Serial section difficulty is a bell-shaped curve with the first two sections being relatively easy for the riders to warm up and cool down is the last two being cleanable and the tough sections are in the middle. I like my riders to start out with a clean (if possible) and end with a clean.

If we have a lot of beginning riders I will make a short loop for them specifically so they may cut off from the "regular" loop early. I've found that a long loop is very difficult for new riders, who are essentially still learning how to ride a Trials bike (or just a motorcycle).

Something our club does (which may be difficult for most clubs) is take the new/beginning riders out as a group. I started out several years ago taking new riders out to ride the Trial with me. I don't compete anymore but actually have a lot more fun with the new riders than I ever did in competition. I assemble them before the Trial and take them through the sign-up process, check their riding gear and bikes (making any adjustments needed), give them some basics as to the rules and them take them out as a group when the event begins. We try to give them a basic Trials riding skills course, show them how to walk and "read" a section and uncover lines, show them what the checkers actions mean etc.

The riders know they always have someone to help them or answer questions.

I let them ride each section three times rather than run the whole loop so they can actually learn from changes they make each try. About half way through the event I have each rider check he section to see how it's done. That way they are not scared to help check a section in the future so we usually always have volunteers when needed. We almost always have new riders return for the next event and our club's membership has remained steady, even in these hard times.

Jon

[jordi]

Sometimes you read posts and think, wheres the common sense.

[old trials fanatic]

Sometimes you read posts and think, wheres the common sense.

Different world, different planet.

[micm]

Hmm visiting the States for a bit of trials setting out advice, section designing etc sounds ok to me.

How much is a Sherco in hand luggage.

[alan_nc]

While we are talking difficulty:

I know I'm a bad rider but I have Fived the loop route more than once and had hill climbs harder than in a section.

Don't forget the Novice Rider has to be able to get to the sections.

[paul w]

Hmm visiting the States for a bit of trials setting out advice, section designing etc sounds ok to me.

How much is a Sherco in hand luggage

if its easy jet it would be cheaper to post it the week before!

seriously, what about making a web based link showing riders in sections giving examples of section difficulty? you could make 4/5 examples of each level showing rock, mud or gradients ect.

Edited November 17, 2010 by paul w

[motovita]

1. Novice - ride sections sitting down, 1st gear, no clutch, no brake.

2. Sportsman - ride sections standing up, 1st gear, no clutch.

3. Intermediate - no hopping or trick riding.

4. Advanced - minimal hopping and trick riding.

5. Expert - hopping or trick riding encouraged in at least 50% of sections.

6. Champ - discretion with respect to safety of bike and rider should be used on large obstacles.[/b]

That's it. Not much guidance there.

What do I add or subtract from the above section setting guidelines? I think they look very good actually, except that sitting isn't very practical any more.National support lines are frequently used as a guideline but as the national series has shrunken there are fewer and fewer riders that have seen a national

What I'm looking for is the mechanics of setting a section.

What's the minimum width that a section should be? Some say 3' some say 4'How many obstacles should there be in each section? More than one certainly but other than that whatever works and is observableWhat point spread to shoot for? 1 point per section for the winner, 30 sections=30 pointsHow do you deal with class splits? Do you mean marking them in a section?How does a guy set sections for classes that are harder than he can ride? Get help if needed but Experts and Champs can be expected to take care of themselves.

There's dozens of questions.

Edited November 18, 2010 by motovita

[famousamos]

when setting sections, its best to make them too easy rather than hard, someone will have fewer points and win the event, or do gate trials events, let the riders pick the line that they can clean.

Fred

[copemech]

Youk know,there was a group that ofganised a few years back that consisted of importers and others in the trials community to give many such guidelines. I think it was the USMTA, or something. I did a quick search and could not find an active website.

The principals set forth as standard suggestions for club standards were sound. Class names, course difficulty and such. Similar to your things here as you stated. Still only an advisory for the most, and clubs still vary, many will not change, and it is what it is.

Seems there is no absolute standard in the UK either. They do what they do. Some no stop, some easier, some use simple flags as markers, some use tape, they use different colors too. Point being, could be just as confusing as some things here, BUT!

The NATC standards used for National events prevail, and are closly based upon the FIM rules at this point. Use Gates instad of a simple split marker and such, all good and very professional, but takes a lot of work for a simple club event.

I have heard lots of opinions over the last ten or so years, on a variety of trials, and have done different formats in the club trials just to change things up, as here the trialsmastre of the course on the day will decide the format he will run.

The point of running the event is indeed to get points off the riders, give them a bit of challenge to keep their feet on the pegs and such. You do non have to kill anyone in the process, nor make things too confusing with the complexity.

Points are generally not taken on big stuff, but the odd turns and off cambers that require better teknique.

Dab all you want, everyone in the same boat, things get really fun when wet. Just don't try to kill anyone.

Give folks something fun to ride depending upon the ability of the riders and it is all good!

We had a lad here from england that rode the Texas events for a number of years. Good rider, rode the Texas experts at one time, think he fell back a class to the SR' not sure bout that, but long story made short, as he has moved back to the UK and in the West Yorks district as I recall, he has stated that (as a more relaxed event) he is riding the low line(of three) and having fun, which he would equate to our intermediate class here in Texas. Which YOU would call Advanced!

Puts things in perspective!

[old trials fanatic]

"What point spread to shoot for? 1 point per section for the winner, 30 sections=30 points"

Hmmm from a personal point of view i feel youre way off here. when i lay out a trial i would look to have the winner of each class finish on less than 10 and more like 5 or 6 thats a 10 section course over 4 or 5 laps.

30 points from the winner of a class i feel is making the course too hard for the majourity of the field.

We regularly get 50+ riders at our events ok not huge entry but in these "tighten your belt times" liveable and at least we dont make a financial loss.

[zippy]

cater section difficulty to the competitors that routinely finish in the middle of the class. This will give them a decent challenge and keep it fun. Those at the bottom of the class will have something to practice for but not so difficult as to scare them away. Those at the top of the class would soon find it too easy and would consider moving up a class.

Personal opinion is that "gate trial format" would be good for a fun day out. But Observed Motorcycle Trials is about riders competing on the same course with the same obstacles that must be ridden in the same order, and the better skilled rider will win.

[leanin]

We had a lad here from england that rode the Texas events for a number of years. Good rider, rode the Texas experts at one time, think he fell back a class to the SR' not sure bout that, but long story made short, as he has moved back to the UK and in the West Yorks district as I recall, he has stated that (as a more relaxed event) he is riding the low line(of three) and having fun, which he would equate to our intermediate class here in Texas. Which YOU would call Advanced!

Puts things in perspective!

If their low line is the same as a Texas intermediate line, are riders in the West Yorks that are at a Texas novice/amateurs unable to compete? Over 1/2 of the competitors in our club ride at a Texas novice/amateur level and would be unable to enjoy a trial in which the easiest line is at an intermediate level...they'd think the club was trying to kill them.