Section difficulty...how should we set them?

[jse]

Hmmm from a personal point of view i feel youre way off here. when i lay out a trial i would look to have the winner of each class finish on less than 10 and more like 5 or 6 thats a 10 section course over 4 or 5 laps.

30 points from the winner of a class i feel is making the course too hard for the majourity of the field.

"Hmmm from a personal point of view i feel youre way off here"(?) From what I see, we are essentially in agreement: "When I set up a club Trial, I usually try to shoot for the average skilled rider losing one point per section" means that the majority (average) riders come in with that score, the winners will be in the +- 5-10 point range. If the highest scores in a class are more than I expected, I'll talk to the riders who had a hard time to try to figure out where I can modify the course/sections to make it a little easier for them but not reduce the challenge for the better riders, if possible.

In part, what we're trying to do is quantify an experienced Trialsmaster's "intuition" used in setting up loop/sections in order to provide some guidance for new orgnizers starting out in the field.

For me, a "club" Trial should be inclusive, fun and a good time to learn. We also have our "serious" events during the year (like our Octobertest, which is part of a four-state series) that the riders know will be more difficult.

Jon

[ishy]

For the first time or two setting out a trial is a bit hit or miss, but once you have done a few, you soon pick up what the local riders can and can't do.

I hear people say we should put an Enduro bike class and some try it, by setting a few easy ride through sections they test with an Enduro bike, one or two Enduro riders show up once and are then never seen again, why ?.

I think because they put the sections on a half mile loop strewn with rocks that makes it no fun at all riding a big bike, this type of rider needs to have fun if you want them to return again, I think if you make the loop more Enduro friendly, with some section just climbs that are part of the loop they can then display some of the skills they brought with them from Enduro, the trials bikes handle the course no problem and it

[hannon]

Three points I think should be said are:

1 take into account the whole event....in other words some sections should be easy most the class gets 0 and then about 2-3 should be hard most class gets 3 (really we are not looking to get 5's); i feel sometimes with different set up crews all setting up an event that everyone wants to make a spectacular section with challenging turns/climbs etc and the end result is 8 hard sections

2 sections should have smooth "flow" and make clear sense

3 riders need to understand that it is okay to plan to take a dab in a tough corner instead of trying to make it and getting a three; and if something is too hard/over your head it is okay to take a 5 and save energy and your bike....I have won events using both of these ideas

[motovita]

"Hmmm from a personal point of view i feel youre way off here"(?) From what I see, we are essentially in agreement: "When I set up a club Trial, I usually try to shoot for the average skilled rider losing one point per section" means that the majority (average) riders come in with that score, the winners will be in the +- 5-10 point range. If the highest scores in a class are more than I expected, I'll talk to the riders who had a hard time to try to figure out where I can modify the course/sections to make it a little easier for them but not reduce the challenge for the better riders, if possible.

In part, what we're trying to do is quantify an experienced Trialsmaster's "intuition" used in setting up loop/sections in order to provide some guidance for new orgnizers starting out in the field.

For me, a "club" Trial should be inclusive, fun and a good time to learn. We also have our "serious" events during the year (like our Octobertest, which is part of a four-state series) that the riders know will be more difficult.(quote)

Jon

More conscientious marshals like you would do wonders for our sport!

When I build sections for a class that I know has a wide spread of scores I will adjust my target scores more towards the middle of the pack while still trying to maintain event to event consistency and parity with difficulty levels in other clubs in our region. It can be difficult. I would never shoot for single digit scores though. To me that just wouldn't seem like a trial.

[ridgrunr]

Great ideas guys. This is what I was looking for. We have different Trials Marshals at each event. That means in a year we will have at least 20 different marshals, setting sections for events that are as far as 6 hours from each other.

I am going to attempt to put together some guidelines to help them know what they should be striving for, in an effort to keep the events somewhat consistent. I know it's a big task but if no one ever told you that a section should be no more narrow than three feet, how would you know? I rode sections last year with literally less than 12 inches between the split markers. The guy was doing his best, but just didn't know. No one had ever told him what he should be shooting for.

From the ideas I get, I'm going to try to come up with a Sections setting guide lines page to give to the guys. If you think of more, please add them.

I've gone back through the posts and here's a quick list of the main ideas posted so far:

1)I usually try to shoot for the average skilled rider losing one point per section. So a three-loop, eight section Trial will see a good rider having an average score of 24 points lost.

2)I know I'm a bad rider but I have Fived the loop route more than once and had hill climbs harder than in a section.

Don't forget the Novice Rider has to be able to get to the sections.

3)Minimum section width ; Some say 3' some say 4

4)What point spread to shoot for? 1 point per section for the winner, 30 sections=30 points

5)When setting sections, its best to make them too easy rather than hard, someone will have fewer points and win the event, or do gate trials events, let the riders pick the line that they can clean.

6)When i lay out a trial i would look to have the winner of each class finish on less than 10 and more like 5 or 6 thats a 10 section course over 4 or 5 laps. 30 points from the winner of a class i feel is making the course too hard for the majourity of the field

7)Cater section difficulty to the competitors that routinely finish in the middle of the class. This will give them a decent challenge and keep it fun. Those at the bottom of the class will have something to practice for but not so difficult as to scare them away. Those at the top of the class would soon find it too easy and would consider moving up a class.

8)When I set up a club Trial, I usually try to shoot for the average skilled rider losing one point per section" means that the majority (average) riders come in with that score, the winners will be in the +- 5-10 point range.

8)For me, a "club" Trial should be inclusive, fun and a good time to learn. We also have our "serious" events during the year (like our Octobertest, which is part of a four-state series) that the riders know will be more difficult.

9)1 take into account the whole event....in other words some sections should be easy most the class gets 0 and then about 2-3 should be hard most class gets 3 (really we are not looking to get 5's); i feel sometimes with different set up crews all setting up an event that everyone wants to make a spectacular section with challenging turns/climbs etc and the end result is 8 hard sections

2 sections should have smooth "flow" and make clear sense

3 riders need to understand that it is okay to plan to take a dab in a tough corner instead of trying to make it and getting a three; and if something is too hard/over your head it is okay to take a 5 and save energy and your bike.

10)Points are generally not taken on big stuff, but the odd turns and off cambers that require better technique.

11)30 points from the winner of a class i feel is making the course too hard for the majority of the field.

If you think of more, please add them.

[jse]

If at all possible, I spend time to open up the section to give several lines through/over/around/between an obstacle. This way a rider has to think and choose a line(s) and an "easy" line in one part will usually lead to a "hard line" in another part of the section and vice-versa. I don't like one-line sections that are just a path to ride. Trials, for me, should be a "thinking" sport where observation and creativity is rewarded. Riders invariably say that have more fun riding an open section with several lines than one that is tight and constrained. Judicious placing of split cards in a wide section can up the "fun factor" a lot.

I also look for sections that do not rely on artifical tight turns for difficulty. I've seen organizers look at a section after taping it off and decide it is too easy so they put in a tight, full-lock turn somewhere to make it more tough. The section could be made more difficult by extending it or widening it to add something interesting to ride over/around.

One of the things I keep in mind is to design a club section so that one observer can check it. It's not always possible but often with a little "tweeking", I can set it up so that the observer can stand at the end, see all the section and be where the rider will exit and get their card punched. Like I say, not always possible, but always a consideration.

Jon

[motovita]

Ridg

If you go to our home page, My link

you will find some informational documents that are aimed at new marshals. Parts of them have been lifted (stolen) off of other clubs websites. Feel free to do the same.

[copemech]

For the Experts, they mostly like to try thinggys! Just don't put 'um off a cliff!

The guys that do ride Champ like a challenge, and for the most pare can take care of themselves. A five here and there gives them something to ride.

[hannon]

On more thing

and this is important to me

someone else said this above but it should be stated clearly

big drop offs or jump offs do not get points.....they brake bikes so lets avoid them in club events for the upper riders (you know the ones... maybe anything above hip high requiring a jump off)

I have had to replace rear shocks to the tune of 400+ dollars

plus it ends your day

[ridgrunr]

Ridg

If you go to our home page, My link

you will find some informational documents that are aimed at new marshals. Parts of them have been lifted (stolen) off of other clubs websites. Feel free to do the same.

Motovita, GREAT stuff there. I'm going to use a bunch of it!

[motovita]

Glad you like it ridg

Our club is considering a promotional video, that we would use for free distribution. Essentially a sales tool to encourage/recruit new riders. We don't need to show off advanced techniques (plenty of that out there allready). We'd like to show the fun, family side of our Trials events and show prospective riders what to expect. The video could help a new rider come to their first event more prepared and not fearfull that they will be expected to ride up a 6 foot wall.

I'm not sure our little club will have the wherewithall to produce such a video. I wonder if it's allready been done or if anone else out there would like to cooperate (or take the lead) on such a project.

Any ideas?

Edited November 21, 2010 by motovita

[outlaw dave]

This is a very good topic and some sound advice from people who have been around for a long time - I especially liked the comments by jse, regarding keeping the sections wide with multi lines where possible to make the rider "Think"

We have similar problems in Canada, with many events proving to be too difficult for the lower classes. - Pre-Entry as in the UK would help, but has never really worked up here. - I've been setting up Trials for 40 years in Canada, and like to jokingly say "One day I'll get it right" - Good luck to everybody taking the time and making the effort - my planning for an event starts in my head - thinking about the loop, thinking about the sections, before I even go out on the bike. - Even after setting everything up, I often go around to double check the difficulty and ease up some sections. - I try to keep Junior sections fairly "Straight" - not too many tight turns - give them lots of room - as Ishy said - riders might say they had fun, but if they have struggled all day, they are unlikely to be back.

[brianmartinson]

The gate trial is a fun format, for a play day event. Our club usually runs one or two of these a year, the day before an event.

Personally, I think we need to stick with regular old trials and just make it fun for the average guy. Your novice/beginner line should be extremely easy. This class needs to be set for a guy who shows up on a trail bike, or someone with very little motorcycle experience. The loop should be very easy too. We are setting up club trials events not nationals or Ute cups.

Setting a trials to please the mob is something very very hard to do. I kinda go off the theory that you can't please everyone, as long as the majority are happy, you did good! I have the hardest with the lower class sections. I haven't ridden a lower class trial since 1993, so its a little difficult. If I am in question, I error on the side of easy for these guys. I will also sometimes enlist the help of a lower class rider to look at my sections and offer advise. Like I said, the event has got to be enjoyable.

[ridgrunr]

I appreciate all the great info I got, from both the guys who set them and the guys who ride them. I tried to take the ideas that made the most sense and put them into a "Basic Section Setting Guide". It's still a work in progress, but if anyone is interested in seeing what I came up, here it is Basic Section Setting Guide. If anyone wants to use any of the info there, feel free. Thanks for your input.

Edited November 25, 2010 by Ridgrunr

[motovita]

Wouldn't it be neat if we could come up with something that could be used by all the clubs nationwide that would start us all doing the same thing?

I reccomend you start with NATC lines (they have 4 now I believe) and then add your lower class lines in evenly spaced increments down from there.