Section difficulty...how should we set them?

[motofire]

That's a great guide RR

[gasgasmi]

That is my way of thinking too Zippy. It must be the right way to do it if you and I agree.

cater section difficulty to the competitors that routinely finish in the middle of the class. This will give them a decent challenge and keep it fun. Those at the bottom of the class will have something to practice for but not so difficult as to scare them away. Those at the top of the class would soon find it too easy and would consider moving up a class.

Personal opinion is that "gate trial format" would be good for a fun day out. But Observed Motorcycle Trials is about riders competing on the same course with the same obstacles that must be ridden in the same order, and the better skilled rider will win.

[jse]

I appreciate all the great info I got, from both the guys who set them and the guys who ride them. I tried to take the ideas that made the most sense and put them into a "Basic Section Setting Guide". It's still a work in progress, but if anyone is interested in seeing what I came up, here it is Basic Section Setting Guide. If anyone wants to use any of the info there, feel free. Thanks for your input.

That is a really good start! Clubs rarely (if ever) have guidelines for section setting written down for all to see. This way the whole club can have some input as to what type of sections they want to ride and the guide may persuade a newer rider to try acting as Trialsmaster as they have some guidance.

It looks like you're on the right track.

Jon

[copemech]

I have thought quite a bit about all this over time. It is a difficult situation in many respects. Attracting new riders, continuity of courses, creating courses and sections that are balanced to the riders, distant riding areas and such.

It is an absolute confunction in many respects, and does seem to require much out of the few, and a lot out of the rest!

Seems here, for the sake of economy our trials here have been condensed into State and Regional weekend events only, only the regulars attend, and the lines are set tough as per the group.

Even sending a guide out with a group of kids and rookies and newbies seems insufficient, as a newbie needs to be escorted round with attention and detail, even adults, so that they get the hang of it with a bit of coaching and guidence on a personal level.

Seems many times, family or friend riders are not allowed to ride together due to class limitations. This just does not set right with me. Although group riding and scoring may seem boring to some of the Hot Dog riders, they forget that their help and input in coaching the lesser riders is important in its own sense. For many that is when we can have the best times with the groups and enjoy the company.

Edited December 11, 2010 by copemech

[eastcoasthopper]

I've been doing this for 10 years and I have three golden rules:

1- you can never make it too easy for the Novice class. Beat them up and they may never come back. Too easy and they can move up a class.

2- Make sure the hardest class is hard enough. If they aren't challenged, they can't move up. If it's too hard, they can move down a class.

3- MAKE IT FUN! Or why bother?

The biggest mistake and my biggest complaint in New England is the idea of catering section difficulty to the riders. There has to be a standard and then the riders can choose their line/class.

For example, I've had several events where some of the Senior B's didn't get any points at all, but the Novices, who ride the same line, had plenty of points. Some trialsmasters would make that line harder so the Senior B's would get some points, and then they beat the crap out of the Novices. If it's too easy, they can move up. If it's too hard, they may never come back.

That being said, I tend to err on the easy side in Novice sections, and a bit too hard on Expert sections. My personal biggest mistake is riding the Expert sections so many times that I clean them consistently and then make them harder, forgetting how many dozens of times I've ridden them! But I am getting better and don't beat the heck out of the Experts anymore, much.

We don't have anyone riding the sections before an event to make sure they are OK. It's up the individual clubs to set the difficulty for each event. This leaves an awful lot of room for inconsistencies. I think that it would help and create more consistency if we had a 'section steward' or something like that.

[sting32]

I've been doing this for 10 years and I have three golden rules:

1- you can never make it too easy for the Novice class. Beat them up and they may never come back. Too easy and they can move up a class.

2- Make sure the hardest class is hard enough. If they aren't challenged, they can't move up. If it's too hard, they can move down a class.

3- MAKE IT FUN! Or why bother?

SNIP a bunch for brevity, although I might use it in my reply...

color]

I had been working on a reply to your "Golden Rules" and I have a totaly differnt take, to your theory & rules above. Well not "all of them" but how do you define fun? TO me, Fun was borderline Oklahoma Nationals this year, where I rode for the 1st time, in the support 40 class. I am an intermediate rider, should have rode the clubman, but that is another story. I had hopes of comapring my riding with other like skill level and minded people. Still that was FUN, I tested myself and learned I need more skills and practice, and that is what I set out to do all this year, practice and push myself.

Now about the "never too easy novice"...

When you dumb down a class (make it too easy) it us just like making the pockets bigger on a snooker table, or putting those airbags in the gutter for bowling, sure it makes the kids feel good, like trophys for both teams at the YMCA soccer tournament... instant gratification I guess. I grew up before that I guess, as it DIDN'T make me feel good ever. I felt better when I was finally able to roll the ball "without hitting gutters" like a big person, so I guess to each might be his own, HUH?. Not to say they could make a second place trophy, but the same trophy's lol!

Anyway I notice this stuff, and hate that I think it is a trend in the USA to cater too much to instant gratification of people. I hate that is seems like the good idea, but it has terrible lasting effects on any club, as well as the riders that got that treatment.

Here is my reasoning, argue if you wish, I am not bashing you, just stating why I dont like that "never can make it too easy for NOVICE". No, not sure what the cure would be, probably a beginner "exit" if needed, so you can make it for those who want a taste, yet you dont want to "kill em" in the novice class.

Novice, since inception, is about a skill set you need to be proficient at to be good in that class. Sure another big part of that is having competiton, that is another story yet a valid issue. I can't emphasize enough for a new person, it is something to "work for". When you accomplish that, that is when the rewards feel so damn sweet. Actually every class is is about a skill set and ability, each progression in classes, grow by building on what you had to learned in the class before. being good at to be at EXPERT and masters, meant you know your novice skills better than you know your mom or partner Each class above assumes you can hand the now present obstacles and techniques from the class below, plus now we increase the difficulty a bit, and add techniques you better learn, if you want to win.

WHen you remove the difficulty for those "might ride" novice to ride, the ones that "will ride" moves up and cant ride amature, you dumb it back, they moves up... The cycle continues infinitum. So forsaking the guys that make the commitment to show up and ride, you cater to the casual rider that hasn't officially taken the plung, more times than not.

You cant cater "Trails" to people who are just wanting a place to have a "pleasant" trail riding day, putting on a trials is a crapload of work. Every club has these kinds of people, ask them "how are you practicing" when they have a hell of a time with the section you are judging, they respond "hell I havent ridden since last trails." Many times you hear comments about the sections too dang hard, from these same and seemingly vocal individuals. and most of these people say that, no matter what time of year. There are more riders that practice for hours each week to get better, for a reason, to get better and get that feeling of accomplishment, that reward for the effort. I feel that you take the accomplishment away when you make sections too easy even novice.

Don't do that to those people. all you can do is encourage the heck out of the newby's by telling them, "hey if it was easy, no one would bother or everyone would be doing it" and trying to help them. Kinda like give a man a fish, or teach him to fish...

I think people find it fun, or they really wont, but let's keep it fun for those who do, hopefully we'll keep finding others to join us, that will!

Anyway, Ill see if this flame suit works...

Edited January 19, 2011 by Sting32

[beta_trials]

I completely agree with you sting32. that is very well put. I have always had the philosophy of trying to challenge riders in their respective classes but at the same time not make it so hard that no one will have any fun what so ever. Plus your right with how do you determine what is fun for riders when ever one is different. very wel put.

[alan_nc]

Sting32,

I agree except: There is another thread going about the decreasing number of riders.

I really think you need to treat the Novice line differently than the other lines. The Novice riders, for the most part, have not been practicing every day. There is a good chance they have never ridden a Trial before. First and formost you want this group to come back. Second you want them to practice and think about moving up to a more challenging line. Third you must be concerned about Novice safety. Yes they are going to fall of their bikes, but you can make it so that they aren't in danger of falling from some height onto a pile of rocks or down a steep embankment.

No...not everyone is going to get a trophy - you still only give one 1st place Novice. Someone is going to have to show at least slightly more skill than the others.

[beta_trials]

Sting32,

I agree except: There is another thread going about the decreasing number of riders.

I really think you need to treat the Novice line differently than the other lines. The Novice riders, for the most part, have not been practicing every day. There is a good chance they have never ridden a Trial before. First and formost you want this group to come back. Second you want them to practice and think about moving up to a more challenging line. Third you must be concerned about Novice safety. Yes they are going to fall of their bikes, but you can make it so that they aren't in danger of falling from some height onto a pile of rocks or down a steep embankment.

No...not everyone is going to get a trophy - you still only give one 1st place Novice. Someone is going to have to show at least slightly more skill than the others.

That is true however one way to bring more people into the sport is to not throw them into an intermediate line especially when they have never even been on a bike. There needs to be some way of introducing new riders to the sport and getting them used to riding regardless of competitive or free riding endeavors. I.E. Create more club trials schools where the upper level riders step back and teach new comers as well as current riders tips and tricks of good practice, section advice, just about anything that has to do with motorcycle trials. I attended one trials school hosted by one of our club pro riders here in Colorado last year and really gained some great knowledge from it however it was only one class at the beginning of season. This year however there is no class listed on the schedule at all.

[sting32]

Beta Trials, you type more eloquently than I can, you said it.

Alan BC,

Is your clubs "novice" class that hard? around here only clumsey people get hurt in novice, and there are those types out there. Most though couldnt get hurt without tryin around here.

I believe Most clubs setup or used to setup beginner classes for NEW to motorcycles and Trails as well - riders. maybe you club has somehow skipped up a skillset or something??? As novice around here can be riden on a KDX enduro type bike, with a good top of class amature on it,

Riding it withoug a dab? maybe not.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Sting32

[alan_nc]

Sting32,

I guess that is one of the reasons I posted my previous message. I would be very surprised if anyone could ride the Novice line on anything but a Trials bike. Most Enduro bikes (even if ridden with steering at full lock) could not negotiate the line. Also our 'set up' guys like to throw in a 'pucker' factor. Some feature that isn't really that difficult but an error will get you into real trouble. I think all of this is fine in Intermediate and up but as I mentioned I would leave Novice as a true entry level class.

Just my .02

[jse]

I think there is also another factor to consider when trying to bring new riders into the sport.

Trials is unique both in skills required and rules, when compared to all the other forms of motorcycle competition I've participated in. Most motorcycle sport is: start when everybody else does, go as fast as you can and not fall off, period. Our rules (which we often change each year-stop, no-stop, o.k. to back up, not o.k. to back up, at what degree of incline is a wall considered "ground" when a handlebar touches it etc.) and "proceedures" (unwritten, such as not parking one's bike in the trail, not blocking the start of a section or loudly swearing when one makes a mistake-you can do it with a full-face helmet in the first turn with 29 other riders at full-bore but it is highly frowned upon when families are spectating at the section) are fairly extensive and can be intimidating at first. Even experienced Trials participants often seem to spend more than a fair amount of their time discussing rules interpretation, a process I rarely experienced in the other forms of sport I was involved in.

When setting section difficulty for beginning classes, I think we need to not only consider the difficulty of section riding but the difficulty of participation, overall, for new riders, and take that into consideration when we set "obstacles" in their path.

Jon

[motovita]

I can think of 3 cases in recent years that we had a new rider come to one of our events (all middle aged to senior men, all on Gas Gas Pro models) that proclaimed that "Trials is too tough for me" and never came back. I don't know about other clubs but ours could sure use three more members. Also if your easiest line can't be ridden safely on a trail bike then you are eliminating the possibility of new riders trying out the sport before they invest in, or can afford, a Trials bike.

I did not marshall any of the above mentioned events. When setting up sections, if I can't clean the novice line in two trys on my XR 250, I change it so I can. Then I put in a beginner line that's easier yet, I call it "Novice B". I advertise the Novice B class as being suitable for first time riders, trail bikes and small wheel Trials bikes. When a new rider shows up that has substantial off road experience with a Trials bike I recommend that they skip the Novice B class and start in the Novice class.

[alan_nc]

We actually had a case this past year where three riders (all Novices)left after riding 7 of a 9 section loop. They told the Trials Master that they didn't come here to get hurt, packed up their bikes and left. I rode in that Trial and there were two sections that I took an automatic 5.

Little late after that to consider making the sections safer.

[nottoogood]

....one of the strange things I have noticed re section make-up/obstacle difficulty is the "visual impact aspect". What i mean is that I often see folks look for that "perfect rock" that really looks cool when cleaned and they will bypass more natural terrain issues that dont appear as impressive (but are often just as difficult/require just as much skill) -- creek sections with multiple 1' ledges in succession are just as challenging as that lone 4' step. Also, these natural obstacles often tend to be easier on bikes (and bones)! We have an older Gentleman in our club that can set up sections with "traction issues in the midst of difficult turns" that are a blast to ride...but i hear folks gripe about them (scoring a 3) and ask were they can go jap zap.

I scored at a National event and actually had guys punch out of my section beacse it was a wet/muddy/boggy mess...muttering they werent going to ger their bikes dirty. Oh well....I'm just an old fart.