dan thorpe

[copemech]

Trials today is about as similar as to when it started as a whores dream. Face it, you still got a bunch of old f-sticks on obsolete bikes, then you got another group o-them on outdated bikes, then you got a mix of them on old and new bikes just because the have one shock!

Then you wand to set the grandfather rules to all, go figure!

No wonder there is a quandery?

[woody]

By granfather rules I'm guessing you mean no-stop

As Dan points out in his letter and as I mentioned in my post, in the UK, where national events have gone back to using no-stop rules the entries have picked up. To the point where some are oversubscribed for entries. SSDT, Lakes 2 day, IOM 2 day, Novogar series to name a few - all modern trials. Then there is the Scottish Pre65 and the IOM Classic.

Other nationals with stop and hop allowed, like the BTC can't get enough riders to fill the point scoring places. Same with other trials where you have hard/easy route. The entry is split almost 20/80 hard/easy and the ratio is increasing as few riders have the skill to fart about and do the tricks to the required level.

Not much to figure really.

Simple fact is, if you allow riders to stop to compose themselves they have a much greater chance of cleaning a section than if they can't stop. So to negate that and stop any number of clean sheets the sections get harder to take account of the fact riders can stop and reposition, which leads to where we are now. Stupid sections that only a few can ride in the top events.

Whilst I share the same preference of rules as Dan, I think we are ok at the moment in having a choice. The number of riders entered into the differing events will show what people prefer

[nigel dabster]

is it rules or severity that dictates the numbers of entries?

Simple fact is that trials as with stop allowed and a high skill base results in sections which are at times impossible, and cleaned only by the best rider(s) in the world.

Is this the severity of the sections per se or the desisgn of the sections. I would say as usual with this debate that the arguments are being clouded by what is ridden in no stop events Not the rules.

My suggestion would be that IF Dan Thorpe is right lets get Richmond motor club to experiment with stop allowed rule for their 3 day and see if the entries drop off?

Maybe Fort william last year was an extreme example of world class sections WITHOUT the big steps and drop offs Dan Thorpe imagines.

[baldilocks]

Good point Dabster

There were still steps and drops in fort william last year but not as many.

If you watch the videos or talk to those that were there what was surprising was that the top guys often lost their marks before they even got to the step or drop. Cabestany is a fantastic rider but how many people thought he would lose 40 + at the SSDT ? (from memory cant recall exactly).

There is still a kind of section that most people can attempt without getting hurt but will take marks off the top boys. Look at the sections at the top of the gondola, I'm not suggesting that lots of people could get out of them but lots could at least have a go.

The World round was of course stop permitted but use of the time limit made the sections almost non stop.

I think the sport has gone wrong when you need a minder in a centre trial.

Yes the rules are part of the problem but I still think the answer is in the hands of the CoC.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Baldilocks

[woody]

The rules do affect the severity of a section.

In WTC they have a time limit. The time limit has a massive impact on how they can ride the section. They no longer have unlimited time to line themselves up for each obstacle they face, therefore they rush and make mistakes. Take away the time limit and the marks lost would fall. Obviously time limits are totally unworkable at club and centre level and god forbid we ever have to have them anyway, it's too far from the original concept.

The time limit is just a rule, the same as stop or no-stop. These two rules also affect the severity of the same section. Plot a difficult section which has a couple of tricky bits that could possibly be cleaned no-stop with a very good, line perfect ride. The same section ridden stop and hop becomes easy for riders that can do that. They can place the bike into a better position that would be impossible under no-stop which then takes away the challenge that is faced under no-stop. To take marks under stop and hop means the section has to be more difficult with the result that it becomes impossible for non trick riders.

The marks lost in SSDT by the top riders are also an illustration of how rules affect section severity. If they could stop and hop their way out of trouble when they know they've lost it and are heading for a dab under no-stop, the marks would tumble and I'd wager you'd have more than a few clean rides each day. Look what Cabestany can do in the indoor and outdoor WTC, if he could use those skills to ride his way out of trouble in the SSDT he would save a stack of marks. So what would happen then, sections tightened up to take marks to allow for the stop and hop - just like back in the early 90s when it almost killed the trial off.

I've never ridden Reeth bit I imagine the sections are straightforward natural type like Scotland. If you ran the same sections with stop allowed then the better riders are going to lower their scores. If it is a low scoring event for the top riders then will you have a few of them clean under stop and hop? That's the dilema.

I'm not arguing for a full change back to no-stop, as I said before I think things are ok as they are and people have the choice. I firmly believe though that rules do affect the severity of a section and to take marks in a stop and hop trial, the sections have to be harder than a no-stop trial. In no-stop you get very little chance to correct a mistake which is the whole point, you pay in marks for mistakes. Under stop and hop you can save a situation that is lost under no-stop.

The rules dictate the kind of sections you put on, the COC can only plot sections to suit the rules.

[timp]

I think the best rule is "stop for a 1"

It worked for many years till the FIM made world rounds hopping rules.

It is basically no stop but if you do stop you get a 1 instead of a 5.

Simple!!

[pete_scorpa3]

I think the best rule is "stop for a 1"

It worked for many years till the FIM made world rounds hopping rules.

It is basically no stop but if you do stop you get a 1 instead of a 5.

Simple!!

As an organisers, I did find that version of the rules the worst to explain to a new observer, especially at 5 minutes past start time.

"A dab is a one, a stop is also a one, two dabs when moving is a two but two dabs when stopped is a three" etc etc. I personally was most relieved when they dropped that system.

Plus I rode in dozens, probably hundreds of trials at that time and was only ever given a 1 for stopping on one occasion. In almost every case, it became 'anything goes' which is what the current TSR22a is now effectively anyway.

[zippy]

It is discussions like these that make me happy I ride in the MOTA series of events in the USA.

We also do have 5 (sometimes 6) separate routes in each section, to accommodate our 7 classes. So that sometimes gets to be a bit difficult to set up.

Personal opinion:

Stop and balance = no penalty (it is a skill)

Stop and foot down = 5 (you are now a kickstand, takes no skill)

Leave the rules able to stop and hop but set up the sections like a no stop = all happy. No stoppers can still ride no stop (if they happen to stop and balance then no penalty, see an advantage) and hoppers can bounce around like rabbits to their hearts content. Let's face it the sport has progressed, as we age or our abilities do not keep up we may have to drop down a class and still have fun. (I know it is a hit to the ego)

Just my opinion,

Of course I know basically nil about trials in the UK.

[jse]

A while back in order to try and produce more national caliber riders our club started making the sections a lot tougher, it didn't take long to find out it was the wrong move and it scared many riders away, the damage was done and those entry numbers have never been the same again.

Ishy,

I saw the same thing happen in a club I used to belong to. My experience was that the "movers" in the club authority (which consisted, incidently, of upper class riders who rode National events) felt that the whole Trial event should be tougher in order to nurture top class riders. As a consequence, the difficulty level was shifted upward for all riders, which, of course, took the fun out of the the event for lower class riders, who eventually dropped out. I'm guessing this has happened in more than one club.

Jon

[ishy]

Ishy,

I saw the same thing happen in a club I used to belong to. My experience was that the "movers" in the club authority (which consisted, incidently, of upper class riders who rode National events) felt that the whole Trial event should be tougher in order to nurture top class riders. As a consequence, the difficulty level was shifted upward for all riders, which, of course, took the fun out of the the event for lower class riders, who eventually dropped out. I'm guessing this has happened in more than one club.

Jon

Back then those pushing for better riders and more spectacular events for spectators had nothing but good intentions, same goes for today, people with a lot of time and effort invested in promoting the sport.

At some point we have to stop making the same mistakes, and take trials for what it is, the poor man's motorsport, trying to mold the sport for profit isn't doing it any good.

[young girl sunt]

You only need to look at scores from no-stop events to see that it is the way forward to get more people involved in trials. If the rules are no-stop, the severity of the sections can be eased, thus leading to more happy riders.

Take Monday's scores from this years ssdt for example:

1. Browny 3

2.Cabestany 3

3.Austermuhle 5

10. Dibs 8

65.Doug 11 + 27 time penalties

135. Me 65

Last Place rider 127 + 173 time penalties

At which other trial in the world can average joe ride against the top riders in the world and have a respectable score like this? With straight forward no-stop sections, even the guy in last place had 2 cleans and I bet he had a great day out!

Newcomers to the sport can watch straight forward no-stop sections and find them achievable, and think 'I could have a go at that!'

Lets now look at results from a British Championship under stop allowed rules.

8 riders on championship route

Winner drops 44

Last place 154 (he gets through 9 sections for less than a 5 all day)

Spectators at the event see the top guys struggling and think to themselves, this is completely unachievable, if these guys cant do it, then how can i?

I know that we need to have continuity with the FIM rules but where is the British Championship and WTC going next with stop allowed rules? The sections are getting more and more dangerous and riders and bikes are progressing rapidly. Simple, change the rules back to no-stop, have some straight forward slippery streams, muddy cambers and hillclimbs, believe me they will still loose marks, as we saw in WTC at Fort Willaim. This way the machines and riders are tested to the max but the sport is more accessible to all and joe public can see themselves competing against the top boy/girls.

With the current TSR22a rules, our sport is becoming too elitist, we can see this by the number of good centre experts and intermediates riding the clubman route in our nationals, they feel like the hard route has evolved into a different sport and the gap is becoming too large to bridge for a lot of riders. Take myself for example, this year I have ridden the Novogar Championship and in the majority of them I have ridden the championship route, however in a few selected rounds I rode the clubman route because I knew that the sections would be too tight for me to have a fearless go at the steps etc. There are many National events in the calendar that I know I will never progress to the hard route in, simply because they are run under TSR22a and I don't have the bottle to drop the clutch underneath a six foot step, especially after I have had to hop skip and bounce may way to get to the step. This is not how it should be, at the point where you start finishing in the top few at clubman events, it would be expected you should be progressing to the next level, however that next level is going further and further out of reach with the development of modern trials. We need to go back to basics.

[jimmyl]

The last few years I have tried to mark out the St David BTC as flowing as possible.( I realized that the big stuff does not always take the marks). We have seen good entries -at least for a BTC hopefully because of this. However we have maybe struggled to put on an event hard enough for the top boys as what is hard when ridden traditionally is much easier when broken down inch by inch and every spare foot of space is used to get the best line. I spend hours trying to put markers and tape in positions to try and make riders go where you want but they have the skill to take advantage of anywhere that you cant make black or white. Its very easy then to just make thing really extreme which the top few can cope with but the rest are on their ear. Its bordering on the dangerous if things don't go right. I've put things in recently that after the event give shivers down the spine when you think what may of gone wrong. No stop/Stop allowed does not only effect the riders!!!!

[pete_scorpa3]

You only need to look at scores from no-stop events to see that it is the way forward to get more people involved in trials. If the rules are no-stop, the severity of the sections can be eased, thus leading to more happy riders.

Take Monday's scores from this years ssdt for example:

1. Browny 3

2.Cabestany 3

3.Austermuhle 5

10. Dibs 8

65.Doug 11 + 27 time penalties

135. Me 65

Last Place rider 127 + 173 time penalties

At which other trial in the world can average joe ride against the top riders in the world and have a respectable score like this? With straight forward no-stop sections, even the guy in last place had 2 cleans and I bet he had a great day out!

Newcomers to the sport can watch straight forward no-stop sections and find them achievable, and think 'I could have a go at that!'

Lets now look at results from a British Championship under stop allowed rules.

8 riders on championship route

Winner drops 44

Last place 154 (he gets through 9 sections for less than a 5 all day)

Spectators at the event see the top guys struggling and think to themselves, this is completely unachievable, if these guys cant do it, then how can i?

I know that we need to have continuity with the FIM rules but where is the British Championship and WTC going next with stop allowed rules? The sections are getting more and more dangerous and riders and bikes are progressing rapidly. Simple, change the rules back to no-stop, have some straight forward slippery streams, muddy cambers and hillclimbs, believe me they will still loose marks, as we saw in WTC at Fort Willaim. This way the machines and riders are tested to the max but the sport is more accessible to all and joe public can see themselves competing against the top boy/girls.

With the current TSR22a rules, our sport is becoming too elitist, we can see this by the number of good centre experts and intermediates riding the clubman route in our nationals, they feel like the hard route has evolved into a different sport and the gap is becoming too large to bridge for a lot of riders. Take myself for example, this year I have ridden the Novogar Championship and in the majority of them I have ridden the championship route, however in a few selected rounds I rode the clubman route because I knew that the sections would be too tight for me to have a fearless go at the steps etc. There are many National events in the calendar that I know I will never progress to the hard route in, simply because they are run under TSR22a and I don't have the bottle to drop the clutch underneath a six foot step, especially after I have had to hop skip and bounce may way to get to the step. This is not how it should be, at the point where you start finishing in the top few at clubman events, it would be expected you should be progressing to the next level, however that next level is going further and further out of reach with the development of modern trials. We need to go back to basics.

Very well put indeed.

The last few years I have tried to mark out the St David BTC as flowing as possible.( I realized that the big stuff does not always take the marks). We have seen good entries -at least for a BTC hopefully because of this. However we have maybe struggled to put on an event hard enough for the top boys as what is hard when ridden traditionally is much easier when broken down inch by inch and every spare foot of space is used to get the best line. I spend hours trying to put markers and tape in positions to try and make riders go where you want but they have the skill to take advantage of anywhere that you cant make black or white. Its very easy then to just make thing really extreme which the top few can cope with but the rest are on their ear. Its bordering on the dangerous if things don't go right. I've put things in recently that after the event give shivers down the spine when you think what may of gone wrong. No stop/Stop allowed does not only effect the riders!!!!

Yes, it's amazing how riders find those 'cheat/not a cheat' lines that you hadn't spotted when they can spend all day bouncing onto them.

[copemech]

Even in no-stop,seems to me the stop for a 5 rule has been soo adverse as to be negated by the fact that most would not want to score it and soo much leinency given for good attempts.

One would hard pressed to call mit a 5 on a split second hesitation!

The best of the riders have good workarounds to hop while moving anyway, so it seems a mute point other than a total standstill.

[nigel dabster]

You only need to look at scores from no-stop events to see that it is the way forward to get more people involved in trials. If the rules are no-stop, the severity of the sections can be eased, thus leading to more happy riders.

Take Monday's scores from this years ssdt for example:

1. Browny 3

2.Cabestany 3

3.Austermuhle 5

10. Dibs 8

65.Doug 11 + 27 time penalties

135. Me 65

Last Place rider 127 + 173 time penalties

At which other trial in the world can average joe ride against the top riders in the world and have a respectable score like this? With straight forward no-stop sections, even the guy in last place had 2 cleans and I bet he had a great day out!

Newcomers to the sport can watch straight forward no-stop sections and find them achievable, and think 'I could have a go at that!'

Lets now look at results from a British Championship under stop allowed rules.

8 riders on championship route

Winner drops 44

Last place 154 (he gets through 9 sections for less than a 5 all day)

Spectators at the event see the top guys struggling and think to themselves, this is completely unachievable, if these guys cant do it, then how can i?

I know that we need to have continuity with the FIM rules but where is the British Championship and WTC going next with stop allowed rules? The sections are getting more and more dangerous and riders and bikes are progressing rapidly. Simple, change the rules back to no-stop, have some straight forward slippery streams, muddy cambers and hillclimbs, believe me they will still loose marks, as we saw in WTC at Fort Willaim. This way the machines and riders are tested to the max but the sport is more accessible to all and joe public can see themselves competing against the top boy/girls.

With the current TSR22a rules, our sport is becoming too elitist, we can see this by the number of good centre experts and intermediates riding the clubman route in our nationals, they feel like the hard route has evolved into a different sport and the gap is becoming too large to bridge for a lot of riders. Take myself for example, this year I have ridden the Novogar Championship and in the majority of them I have ridden the championship route, however in a few selected rounds I rode the clubman route because I knew that the sections would be too tight for me to have a fearless go at the steps etc. There are many National events in the calendar that I know I will never progress to the hard route in, simply because they are run under TSR22a and I don't have the bottle to drop the clutch underneath a six foot step, especially after I have had to hop skip and bounce may way to get to the step. This is not how it should be, at the point where you start finishing in the top few at clubman events, it would be expected you should be progressing to the next level, however that next level is going further and further out of reach with the development of modern trials. We need to go back to basics.

There are some valid points here but to claim that the unique event like the SSDT is proof that no stop is the answer to every declining entry/ person that chooses to not ride/ gives up in trials is a leap too far. It seems to me that dans original point that no stop should be adopted by all is based on anecdote assumption and no substantial proof of any kind.

it seems to me we are jumbling up all the arguments from club trial severity to numbers in the wtc.

The acu has given clubs the choice, if that isn't the fairest solution then i don't know what is.

We should be all on the FIM rules as a world sport but thankfully our federation has given us a choice.

There is no significant evidence that a change to force no stop is wanted by the majority, or more importantly would ever increase trials participation.

Otherwise I would be all for it.