Tyz V's Scorpa

[johnnyboxer]

What are the main differences between the 2 bikes ??

In terms of -

Handling

Finding grip

Riding position

Likes/Dislikes

Is the Yamaha better built than the Scorpa

Are the motors exactly the same in terms of power/porting

Was the TYZ a dog or is still a good bike today

I've never ridden either, just like the look of the TYZ

TYZ Frame looks as if it shares some similarities with the later Cota 315R ......Does it??

Can you still find TYZ's in good nick or are they flogged to death like most TY250 mono's

Were they built between 92-96 or did they go later to 98

Just wondering.........????

[woody]

Well, you may get some interesting responses to this one. Prepare to see the TYZ take a beating would be my guess.

Having owned 5 TYZs and ridden but never owned a Scorpa, here is my opinion.

No point listing differences as the two bikes are like chalk and cheese. TYZ is now over 10 years old in terms of design whilst even the oldest Scorpa SY is modern up to date design. Scorpa steers and finds grip better in mud and slime and is lighter and more capable in terms of trick riding. Scorpa has a better riding position as the footrests are too high on the TYZ although this can obviously be changed.

On predominently rocky trials such as SSDT and the like the TYZ is still very capable. The steering is fine on these types of section and it will hold a line well. The suspension is still good and it soaks up rocks well but obviously things have moved on and the Scorpa's is better.

TYZ is obviously much better for roadwork as it has a seat.

Although they share the same engine, this is where the TYZ wins hands down for me. It is more torquey and flexible than the Scorpa, has a smoother delivery off tickover and is absolutely linear in its power delivery. The Scorpa seems to have lost some of the Z's bottom end torque, runs lumpier at the bottom and just doesn't have the same feel to it. I don't know if Scorpa port the engines or not but more likely it is down to the design of the exhaust.

The biggest difference in the engines though seems to be their longevity. TYZ engines are pretty well bullet proof, will take loads of abuse and just keep going. I've never had to replace anything on any of them, not even rings. Scorpas on the other hand seem to suffer from engine failure for some reason. Now I don't mean every one of them obviously, before Scorpa owners start jumping up and down, but I know of a few that have had engine rebuilds before they are even a couple of years old. Twisted cranks seem to affect some of them for some reason.

The biggest problems I've had with riding the TYZ is that the front wheel won't hold on slippery cambers and it always pushes out on tight turns in mud. It just won't hold a line on this sort of going. This is where a Scorpa or any of the other current crop are much better.

It is still possible to buy a decent TYZ today and no they aren't or never were dogs but opinion is divied. Some people loved them some hated them (just like the 4RT or any other bike) You just have to remember how old the design is before judging it against current bikes. Dougie wouldn't win a world or British round on one now.... Go back 6 years though, when they were already 5 years old and Adam Norris, Rob Crawford and Dan Thorpe were putting in superb rides in the SSDT on them. One of the Huddleston brothers won the Expert class in the British championship on one.

I have recently bought an 05 280 Pro and it is more capable than the TYZ as you would expect. It handles a lot better than the TYZ in the Midland gloop. I have a dilema though. I am confident that if I do the SSDT on the TYZ it will not suffer mechanical problems and will sit flat out on the road all week and not lose a thimbleful of water. If I ride the Pro I will not have the same level of confidence, even though I want to ride it because it is the better bike. It won't be as comfortable on the road and it certainly won't match the TYZ's tarmac performance. Quality on the TYZ is not an issue.

Now if only the engine in the Scorpa had the same characteristics as it does in the TYZ I would have had one, but for me they don't. I don't mean they are underpowered or not any good, just not as torquey. They seem a bit hollow is the best way I can describe it.

Now if you really want to know how a TYZ engine can perform you should try Nigel Birkett's bike. The TYZ motor in that is a beaut.

Poduction of the TYZ stopped in '98

Don't think you'll find any similarities between the TYZ nd 315 frames other than they are alloy and perimiter design

[marky g]

Never ridden a TYZ, but I do own and SY 250 and I like it alot.

The main reason I bought the SY is the yam motor, I cannot stand an unreliable bike...linkless rear suspension (a good + point) and a nice riding postion...more importantly it suits my riding style.

Not heard of any problems with the Yam / Scorpa motor's but I have only been back into trial for a couple of years since a 10 year layoff, so I cant comment on that.

Are you thinking of buying one?

[feetupfun]

If anyone seriously wants a new TY250Z I've heard that there are a few brand new ones left here in Australia that were never able to be sold due to the ridiculously high ticket price at the time.

[t-shock 250]

Don't expect to be able to trick-ride the TYZ like a scorpa or any other recent trials bike, they are very hard work to hop about.

[steve]

I was working as a mechanic for a Scorpa rider when the bike was in development and really enjoyed looking at all the developments of the bike. Scorpa took the yam engine out and it weighed about 2kg lighter than the Rotax - they then popped it into the Easy frame for development and the Scorpa frame was 2 kg lighted than the Tyz!!!.

The Scorpa has a hydraulic clutch where as the Tyz is cable. The hydrualic clutch on the prototype had a cylinder machined onto the side, a cheaper but just as effective alternative was found for the production model.

Scorpa also tweaked the ignition curve to give a bettter power supply.

I think the Scorpa is a superb bike for clubman riders. They have always tried to build bike aimed at the club rider, the problem is the club riders think they need a super tuned Lampkin replica!

Go for the Scorpa.

[steveo]

The difference between a TYZ and Scorpa is so different in every department.

Having ridden the very first 1984 TY 250 mono and up dating to a new TY each year for 6 years I have always been a Yamaha Diehard.Had a break till 1991 season and was assured a Beta was the way to go,mid way through that year I had my first ride on a TY 250 pinkie and immediatly knew I,d bought the wrong bike for me.

In 92 changed to a TY 250 pinkie and loved it. At the beginning of 93 bought a new TYZ 250 and only kept it for two months and replaced it with another pinkie.

The TYZ was not for me.It was too heavy. no steering lock,every time you rode it you ended up with bruised sore knees from the wide frame..

Compared to a pinkie I found it a dinasoar to ride,energy consuming and just so unresponsive suspension wise.The water cooled motor was certainly an improvement on the air cooled for keeping it at a more consistant idle,and it has proven to be one of the most reliable motors ever.

For the next two years I purchased a New TY 250 pinkie and was the happiest trials rider round.Then the Yamaha importers told me there would be no more available as they had stopped production.

I was not comfortable with the more aggressive power of the european bikes,so I purchased three new Japanese versions of the pinkie and stored them away, which I thought was a good idea at the time...if I got two years out of each bike that would take me up to 2001 ...surely something that I liked would come along by then, if I was still able to ride a bike.

In 2000 there was talk of Scorpa releasing there new SY 250 with a TYZ motor.Got in contact with Scorpa importer an put my name on it .Im now on my fifth SY 250 and love them better than any other new bike available.

Scorpas even though they have a 12 plus year old motor are obviously over looked by many because they have no name riders competing on them in the world rounds.

These bikes are not world championship machinery,but they are the easiest,gentlest most unintimidating bikes to ride.

There power can be increased or decreased so quickly and easily with addition of flywheel weights ,a slow throttle or timing change.

There suspension for the vast majority of riders is more than adequate,finding traction in the slippy conditions so well and being so plush nimble and sure footed in loose or rocky terrain.

The only problem I,ve encounted was the 03 foot pegs being to frail and easily snapped.

The ease of starting and low maintanance is also a big winner.

It amazes me to see so many young riders,especially girls being put onto the more aggressive 2 stroke machines after growing out of there Ty 80,s or similar and are clearly frightened by their new mount,I think a lot of Dads are too bike loyal to think of there child not riding the brand they ride.

So the best thing to do is have a ride and draw your own conclusion....Where all looking for what suits the best to your riding style and ABILITY.

[woody]

In terms of comparsion I have never owned a Scorpa so cannot make any comment, other than the fact that my TYZ was certainly well down on power compared to the Beta, and fourth gear climbs were not possible, unless you had an extremely long run up, and didnt need to back off at all.

RS we've been here before I think. There must have been something seriously wrong with that TYZ of yours. As said earlier I've had 5 of them and all will easily pull me from a standing start up muddy or dry climbs in 4th. Absolutely no problem. I'm no lightweight either, over 17 stone in riding gear. Between sections it will pull 5th up climbs with little run up. On the flat it will pick up the front in 6th from about 20mph for wheelies. In SSDT you hardly have to touch the gearbox accross the moors as it just pulls.

I remember doing the Loch Lomond 2 day in 97 on my TYZ. After one group of sections there is a climb up the side of a mountain that must be between quarter and half a mile straight up skywards. Really steep. The TYZ ate it in 5th gear. Following year I was on a new 315 98 Mont. That wouldn't pull me up in 4th, it just died. Had to stay in 3rd and it was slow going. My mate, also on 98 315 could just pull 4th but he only weighed 9 and half stone. And there was nothing wrong with my bike powerwise either. Hated it actually as it was too sharp.

As I said before it is probably the most torquey trials bike I have ever ridden, not the most powerful but definitely the most torquey and flexible. Better than the Scorpa engine - in my opinion.

Scorpa is still the more competitive bike though, no argument there, but so it should be as it is virtually 10 years newer in design.

The perfect bike for me though would be the handling of a GasGas Pro with the performance characteristics of my TYZ engine. Wish it would fit in the Pro frame.....

[marky g]

I was not comfortable with the more aggressive power of the european bikes,so I purchased three new Japanese versions of the pinkie and stored them away, which I thought was a good idea at the time...if I got two years out of each bike that would take me up to 2001 ...surely something that I liked would come along by then,

Fair play mate, I would have loved to have donw something like that

Did you ever think of just keeping one tucked away.

I've had 2 pinkys, a new one in the early 90's and a recent s/hand one (which I've now sold.

I still think they would sell if they brought them out again.

Cheers

[woody]

OK then, just for the record, I'm all for live and let live and everyone has a different opinion of what is good and bad, fashionable or unfashionable. It's what being an individual is all about and I don't let the fact that others don't share my opinion of what is good or bad upset or enrage me. Sheer stupidty and rather bigoted to do so.

But, if the TYZ was so bad perhaps someone can explain to me how one of the Huddleston brothers won the Expert class of the British championship riding one when it was already a few years old, more than once I believe, against riders on the far superior Beta, GasGas, Scorpa, Montesa machines. And also how Dan Thorpe, Adam Norris and Rob Crawford won National trials on TYZs. In fact, I don't think Adam Norris ever got the same results on the Beta as he did on the Yam.

Sure they haven't got much lock for tight turns but remember the rules when they were designed. Anything goes trick riding. Trials bikes weren't ridden or steered around corners, they were stopped and hopped all over the place so steering lock was immaterial. All the other bikes had USD forks so they didn't have much lock either. I had one of the original red Beta Zeros and that had less lock than a TYZ and probably my enduro bike...

As for being heavy that's pretty much crap. 60s and 70s bikes are 'heavy'. Yes they're heavier than current bikes, only to be expected. But in terms of actual weight they were no heavier than the bikes they were brought out with, they don't feel heavy to ride unless trying to ride it 'modern expert' style which is dancing it around on the move but that again is immaterial as the type of person riding one nowadays can't ride like that anyway. They look heavy because of their bulky appearance. They are not really any wider accross the footrests than a 315 if you compare them. A Beta Rev3 feels heavy after riding a Gasser but only because the weight is front biased. Gasser feels heavy after a Sherco for the same reason. The actual bikes are pretty similar in weight I'd guess. It's al about perception when riding them.

The TYZ has always come in for stick. A bit like the 4RT is now for some reason, particularly from people who have never ridden them. As I said earlier, people love them or hate them. Doesn't bother me either way as it makes no difference to my life. I've always liked them and have accepted the faults I think they have which I mentioned in my original post. I know current bikes are obviously better and I've now retired mine and bought a 280 Pro. But going back to my original question, if they were so badly designed, how did they achieve the results they did at British Championship (expert class) and national level? And if you're suggesting that the TY Mono is better then the TYZ you've been on the bottle.... Some riders may prefer riding a TY Mono to the Z, but the Z will do far more than a TY Mono is capable of.

PS; You must have forgotten that when the TY Mono first arrived it wouldn't run properly as the carburation was way out. Shirty did a nice little trade in selling the 'correct' jets (with the numbers ground off) and modified airbox lids to make them run properly - ie what it should have come with in the first place. Not quite what you'd call ' right, and worked extremely well! '

[bikespace]

I'm not sure what other people think of the looks but....

I had a fairly long (about 16 year) break from trials. I was at a trial a few months after starting again. I remember the exact position I was stood on the river bank, for good reason, and it makes my face flush every time I've ridden past it since.

I saw a 'big silver thing' ride through the expert route, and muttered slightly louder than under my breath "F*ck me what is that?" The bloke next to me said "Yamaha TYZ!", and I said "Jesus, not pretty is it?" He said nowt.

Then I watched a few minutes later as he went back to his bike, an identical Yamaha TYZ. They were riding round together.

Ever wished the ground would just swallow you up?

I couldn't believe the lovely TY250 mono ad developed in to that. I had similar thoughts about some of the 90's Fantic's after my beloved 240, but kept my mouth shut

[boofont]

I've been avoiding this one as I suspected it would turn in to a 'TYZ's better than an SY" type topic.... And it has! I have owned both bikes and the only thing they share is the engine. Plain and simple. They have nothing in common other than that. Steveo's coment's about the Scorpa's are spot on, I totally agree with him. As for the TYZ? Well, its got be one of the better bikes for starting out on, and if they are so crap, then why are they still going for

[feetupfun]

The abject failure of these bikes in terms of sales, which led to them being discontinued after a relatively short time, would seem to support the fact that they were never that fantastic, in terms of performance.

The main reason that TY250Zs were a sales failure here was the pricing. A 1994 TY250Z was $10,500AUS in 1994. At the same time the first model Beta Techno was $6,500AUS. The Yamaha did not seem to be a more competitive bike overall than the Techno despite some brilliant components. No wonder that only a few were taken up by privateers.

[woody]

I certainly agree they were hideously overpriced compared to the opposition but that didn't stop them from selling in the UK. So I don't understand the comments that they were a commercial failure here which is why Yamaha withdrew them.

They had a production run from 93 to 98. That's 6 years and typical Yamaha, continue with a model without major development as it keeps selling. Just like the TY Mono which by the 90s couldn't match the other bikes in terms of capability. It was still a great clubman bike yes, but you wouldn't win a national on one by then.

By 98 the TYZ was lagging behind the opposition so sales slowed up which is why Yamaha discounted the price. But they all sold, Yamaha have't got them all stockpiled somewhere have they? So I don't understand the less sales/commercial failure view.

[motopat]

As for the TYZ? Well, its got be one of the better bikes for starting out on, and if they are so crap, then why are they still going for