john collins Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 I am a little confused with any concern about this There have been lots of letters and comments over the years ( including on TC if memory serves me correct) - that we need some standardisation etc Some time ago we wrote to all Centres and tried to determine what was being used, therefore one would assume that this also filtered down to Clubs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perce Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 In terms of cost flags ARE mass produced already - seeMass produced flagsmost clubs I've ridden at make them themselves even cheaper than that. We bought some of these to use at an A&B round a few years back. I personally think they're dangerous as they have little give in them, now I've never heard of anybody being seriously injured by one but I certainly wouldn't like to land on one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted January 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 (edited) In answer to Tricky Dicky who wrote. "Which is the main route then? Surely the hardest route is the main route and the others are deviations? In your trials do you follow the intermediate route then follow the deviations then back to the inter route? As far as I am aware and it has been for as long as I have been riding the main route is always red and blue flags. Some clubs I have ridden at seem to think the middle route is the main route, I am confused how that ever works! How do you lay out a tight corner when you use the same coloured flags? In my experience I get there when the expert route has a deviation onto white or yellow and its just a jumble of flags. I'm not getting at you i'm just wondering what the logic is behind it as its far easier to mark a deviation from red and blue flags than pairs of the same colours." In my mind the main route should be the one with the most riders. We have far more Intermediates and Clubmen than Experts. The logic, my logic anyway, was that the Experts would ride a harder deviation from the main route, white flags, and the Clubmen an easier deviation, yellow flags, seemed simple to me but i also see the sense in trying to encourage uniformity across the country for the riders who ride all over. Edited January 27, 2011 by Old trials fanatic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 In answer to Tricky Dicky who wrote. "Which is the main route then? Surely the hardest route is the main route and the others are deviations? In your trials do you follow the intermediate route then follow the deviations then back to the inter route? As far as I am aware and it has been for as long as I have been riding the main route is always red and blue flags. Some clubs I have ridden at seem to think the middle route is the main route, I am confused how that ever works! How do you lay out a tight corner when you use the same coloured flags? In my experience I get there when the expert route has a deviation onto white or yellow and its just a jumble of flags. I'm not getting at you i'm just wondering what the logic is behind it as its far easier to mark a deviation from red and blue flags than pairs of the same colours." In my mind the main route should be the one with the most riders. We have far more Intermediates and Clubmen than Experts. The logic, my logic anyway, was that the Experts would ride a harder deviation from the main route, white flags, and the Clubmen an easier deviation, yellow flags, seemed simple to me but i also see the sense in trying to encourage uniformity across the country for the riders who ride all over. Yes, for a few years before we adopted the current system of pairs of arrows, we used red/blue for out most popular route which was the B route (Clubman if you like). The few Experts who rode followed the red/blue until they saw the white A+ (hard)deviation. The Novices followed the red/blue until they saw the yellow/green (easy) deviation. Like you say, it made sense for our standard route to be the one with the most riders. The B route. With the current system there is no main route, every route has it's own coloured arrows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tricky dicky Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 I do see what you are saying and it is quite logical but surely the main route is the hardest route and any other route is a deviation from that? I have ridden at trials and because the hardest route is not the main route then the sections do not make sense and the observers and riders cannot figure them out. I quite like the concept of just having paired arrows like they do in world rounds. The easiest to follow from what I have seen is like a world round and there is tape down either sides of the section and you can go anywhere between the tape but you have to go through the deviated flags when there are any. I understand that this is very land dependant but it does work and is dead easy to follow. I know its a pain putting tape out but it does mean less flags and more options for everybody. The beginners and clubmen love it as it is very easy to follow. My club does not personally use this method but we can always learn from others what goes well and what doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 I do see what you are saying and it is quite logical but surely the main route is the hardest route and any other route is a deviation from that? I have ridden at trials and because the hardest route is not the main route then the sections do not make sense and the observers and riders cannot figure them out. I quite like the concept of just having paired arrows like they do in world rounds. The easiest to follow from what I have seen is like a world round and there is tape down either sides of the section and you can go anywhere between the tape but you have to go through the deviated flags when there are any. I understand that this is very land dependant but it does work and is dead easy to follow. I know its a pain putting tape out but it does mean less flags and more options for everybody. The beginners and clubmen love it as it is very easy to follow. My club does not personally use this method but we can always learn from others what goes well and what doesn't. When you've got 60 riders at a trial with 35 on the B route, 20 on the C route and only 5 on the A route, it makes it a lot easier to set out the standard route as the B and make a Hard A diversion and an Easy C diversion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tricky dicky Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 I dont agree with that Pete as you dont know how many are going to turn up. I think the main route should always be the hardest route. In the BTC they dont have the expert B route on red/blue flags as it isn't the main route. Otherwise the championship class and expert A would do a deviation from the easiest route which is nonsense in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 Well I set out perhaps 50 trials over a 10 year period using this method and it worked ok, but each to his/her own. As I said earlier, we now use a diferent system anyway. Coloured arrows which has been universally approved by all the riders who've commented to me after each trial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tricky dicky Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 Red and blue is the main route and has been in the acu handbook for as long as I have been riding. It just seems to be confusing having the hard route which is the main route as anything different. I set plenty of trials out and ride every week and have done for 20 years now so i'm not one of these that doesn't do anything to keep clubs running. I dont know if you have anything to do with the Colmore in regards to setting out but I am guessing it will be blue/red flags with deviations as thats the norm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 Red and blue is the main route and has been in the acu handbook for as long as I have been riding. It just seems to be confusing having the hard route which is the main route as anything different. I set plenty of trials out and ride every week and have done for 20 years now so i'm not one of these that doesn't do anything to keep clubs running. I dont know if you have anything to do with the Colmore in regards to setting out but I am guessing it will be blue/red flags with deviations as thats the norm. Absolutely. I agree, however the book doesn't say the hardest route has to be the main route, it seems logical to have the route with the most riders as that. But then we are talking about club trials with three and sometimes four routes! But as I've said, this is all irrelevant to our club trials now as we've been using pairs of coloured arrows to mark out club trials for three years now. For the Colmore, the main route is the one with the most riders, hence it is blue/red. The Non championship route is a different matter and I have yet to be instructed on the colours we will be using for this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted January 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 When you've got 60 riders at a trial with 35 on the B route, 20 on the C route and only 5 on the A route, it makes it a lot easier to set out the standard route as the B and make a Hard A diversion and an Easy C diversion. [/quote ] aroundabout the same entries as us . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john collins Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Did not really wish to pop back i;nto this one, as there are some interesting points being made Howvere I think now the severity is being mentioned in relation to colour of course - I perhaps should point out that perhaps trhe problem is that many have actually not yest seen the 2011 rules ( and I just konew I am goiung to regret saying that!) I paste the part below - and there is a new bit about severity and section marking etc TSR18 OBSERVED SECTIONS Th e organiser must announce which route each class is riding and the corresponding colours of the corresponding route marking. Details may be displayed at signing on, at the fi rst section or contained in the Final Instructions or programme . Riders in the same class must all start at the same section It is recommended that routes be marked as follows: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Did not really wish to pop back i;nto this one, as there are some interesting points being made Howvere I think now the severity is being mentioned in relation to colour of course - I perhaps should point out that perhaps trhe problem is that many have actually not yest seen the 2011 rules ( and I just konew I am goiung to regret saying that!) I paste the part below - and there is a new bit about severity and section marking etc TSR18 OBSERVED SECTIONS Th e organiser must announce which route each class is riding and the corresponding colours of the corresponding route marking. Details may be displayed at signing on, at the fi rst section or contained in the Final Instructions or programme . Riders in the same class must all start at the same section It is recommended that routes be marked as follows: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john collins Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 No problem - do what you find works The idea of using the colours all the way through is one I have ridden - and yes it does work well - but as you say does use more markers At end of it all , use whatever you have all found to work for the organisers and riders, but as I stated at outset, this is a start to try to achieve some sort of norm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted January 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 No problem - do what you find works The idea of using the colours all the way through is one I have ridden - and yes it does work well - but as you say does use more markers At end of it all , use whatever you have all found to work for the organisers and riders, but as I stated at outset, this is a start to try to achieve some sort of norm Thanks for that John. Think i probably overreacted to the word "recommended" you interpreted it one way i interpreted it another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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