British Twinshocks what would your eligability critera be?

[woody]

And whilst we're on the silhouette theme of new replica parts, here is a picture of Sammy Miller Products' billet hubs, eligible for Pre65, presumably Rickman copies.

Now tell me, what is the difference in appearance between that front hub and a polished Grimeca front hub. My opinion is very little.

What's the difference in price - about

[woody]

Yes, I

[jack_the_lad]

As I said earlier in the thread if it

[monty_jon]

You can take your bike to the local BMCA club events and have fun with the rest of them, no problem at all.

Yes, I do agree. I

[old trials fanatic]

Sorry about the dyslexic fingers it should have read I'm not a very angry man just a person that is down to earth and cannot cut the bulls..t. Have had a look on the web site have not worked what the difference is between what the classes are there Yorkshire and what you propose apart from a few rules . As Totalshell quoted where

Edited January 31, 2011 by Old trials fanatic

[woody]

As I said earlier in the thread if its not broken it does not need fixing. Three months ago a friend said that his next bike he was going to build would have all the parts on it youve talk and wait for he would ride it in a Yorkshire classic event as they came up with an answer several years ago. You ride in the specials class what the problem and quite a few are happy to do so including myself. PS they give an award in this class. So this club must be at the for front of classic trials

Of course it's broken, this topic wouldn't raise itself at this time of year every year if it wasn't.

Forget Yorkshire Classic for a moment. They are a club with their own rules who organise their own club events. Riders don't travel from all corners of the UK to compete in their events.

Riders do travel to compete in the Miller rounds, Northern British Bike series and the Pre65 Scottish. The Miller rounds cater for specials, albeit under different class titles over the years, the Northern series does I think (memory not too good as can't find any regs anywhere) but the Scottish obviously doesn't.

What's broken is the philosophy that the whole 'silhouette' or 'must be of British period appearance' eligibility criteria is built upon. The parts that are accepted don't conform to this wording. I may have mentioned this before... All I've tried to do is get other opinions as to why people think these components comply, because I can't see that they do, any more than a set of Cota yokes, Grimeca wheel or in-line axle Ossa or Yamaha forks. Still, it is not possible to get a reply on this.

Here is another example of the rule covering yokes from another club.

Only British or British replica yokes can be used.

Now here is a picture of some BSA yokes

Here is a picture of a yoke that is eligible

A perfect silhouette.... or of British period appearance... well obviously.

Can someone explain the logic.

And here are some Cota yokes that aren't acceptable

And just to reiterate once more, I have nothing against these modern parts, the engineering is beautiful. But the original ethos or ideal that these rules were created upon have been lost. It can't go back, other used parts that resemble the new billet parts should be allowed, there should be no need for a specials class. If not, why not, what's the logic?

Comments?

Edited January 31, 2011 by Woody

[old trials fanatic]

Of course it's broken, this topic wouldn't raise itself at this time of year every year if it wasn't.

Forget Yorkshire Classic for a moment. They are a club with their own rules who organise their own club events. Riders don't travel from all corners of the UK to compete in their events.

Riders do travel to compete in the Miller rounds, Northern British Bike series and the Pre65 Scottish. The Miller rounds cater for specials, albeit under different class titles over the years, the Northern series does I think (memory not too good as can't find any regs anywhere) but the Scottish obviously doesn't.

What's broken is the philosophy that the whole 'silhouette' or 'must be of British period appearance' eligibility criteria is built upon. The parts that are accepted don't conform to this wording. I may have mentioned this before... All I've tried to do is get other opinions as to why people think these components comply, because I can't see that they do, any more than a set of Cota yokes, Grimeca wheel or in-line axle Ossa or Yamaha forks. Still, it is not possible to get a reply on this.

Here is another example of the rule covering yokes from another club.

Only British or British replica yokes can be used.

Now here is a picture of some BSA yokes

Here is a picture of a yoke that is eligible

A perfect silhouette.... or of British period appearance... well obviously.

Can someone explain the logic.

And here are some Cota yokes that aren't acceptable

And just to reiterate once more, I have nothing against these modern parts, the engineering is beautiful. But the original ethos or ideal that these rules were created upon have been lost. It can't go back, other used parts that resemble the new billet parts should be allowed, there should be no need for a specials class. If not, why not, what's the logic?

Comments?

Good point nicely proven IMHO. The billet yokes dont resemble anything i remember seeing prior to the Montesa Cota. As has been said so many times all down to vested interest. It's the "emporors new clothes all over again".

So come on all you died in the wool Pre65 officiondos lets see a photo of the original equipment yokes as fitted to a British Bike prior to 31st December 1964 that those billet yokes resemble because i for one will be astounded if you can provide one?

As for "specials" i seem to remember most trials bikes Pre65 and beuond for many years were "specials" anyway. I was there were you?

[jack_the_lad]

Well you will glad to know that you

[totalshell]

well if otf's new formula for brit twin shocks ( with cota sherpa and ossa bits) is as popular and as polarising as this thread it should run and run. it's even succumbed to sniping over poor spelling! and all this over the proposal for a new class. start a new class run the trials it makes not a jot of difference to the fact that the original class is called pre65 and it remians strong and vibrant, growing even in those clubs where it is promoted ( almost 200 rode in the various championships rounds of a previuosly mentioned club that allegedly attracts no one from outside its borders)

to address a couple of issues that vex. As i stated to otf in an earlier thread ( only six weeks ago) at a time when 'new' amals were not available/ not consistant a democratic club took a view of pragmatism at the agm to allow an alternative carb, perhaps the time is right now to propose a return to brit carbs? the same club in trying to maintain a style of bike introduced a rule that forks should have gaitors as the majority did pre 65. and the membership agreed.

most clubs stick to a brit theme with constituant parts and so although perhaps appearing inconsistant your 2011 cnc made in blighty yolks are okay and yet clearly your montesa cota yolks are not, despite there look alike similarities the rules of most clubs would prohibit them

and yet with the rules readily available a number turn up with bikes with grey areas and as jack evidences they all get a ride in fact some clubs offer awards for the class.

just because a class of bike has developed faster than its regulation and beyond the dreams of its founders does not make it wrong. the class was started to preserve and encourage the riding of british bikes and it has certainly done that. there are though a couple of thousand unused bikes in sheds, barns garages lying abandonded waiting for there chance. i'd hope that before cutting up an ossa or ty they were given another opportunity.

no one has a right to ride a competative bike, if one is beyond your pocket you have to accept it and ride what you can if one is beyond your engineering skills you have to accept it and ride what you can if you want to build something from bits of bikes from near and far thats not a problem if you want to ride in a brit specials class not a problem if you want to ride that old heavy weight rigid that drips oil and weighs two ton thats not a problem.. theres room for us all on the sections

[woody]

( almost 200 rode in the various championships rounds of a previuosly mentioned club that allegedly attracts no one from outside its borders)

That's not what I said at all, all I meant was that not as many people from different parts of the country would travel to their events as for the national championship events. I'm well aware that their trials are well supported and well done to them.

to address a couple of issues that vex. As i stated to otf in an earlier thread ( only six weeks ago) at a time when 'new' amals were not available/ not consistant a democratic club took a view of pragmatism at the agm to allow an alternative carb, perhaps the time is right now to propose a return to brit carbs? the same club in trying to maintain a style of bike introduced a rule that forks should have gaitors as the majority did pre 65. and the membership agreed.

Why only for Cubs, why not other bikes that use Amals. What's the reasoning (I'm not asking for a reply)

most clubs stick to a brit theme with constituant parts and so although perhaps appearing inconsistant your 2011 cnc made in blighty yolks are okay and yet clearly your montesa cota yolks are not, despite there look alike similarities the rules of most clubs would prohibit them

ludicrous

and yet with the rules readily available a number turn up with bikes with grey areas and as jack evidences they all get a ride in fact some clubs offer awards for the class.

just because a class of bike has developed faster than its regulation and beyond the dreams of its founders does not make it wrong. the class was started to preserve and encourage the riding of british bikes and it has certainly done that. there are though a couple of thousand unused bikes in sheds, barns garages lying abandonded waiting for there chance. i'd hope that before cutting up an ossa or ty they were given another opportunity.

The regulations were introduced long after the class in an attempt to limit the modifications and keep the bikes looking 'period'. This has now clearly failed.

no one has a right to ride a competative bike, if one is beyond your pocket you have to accept it and ride what you can if one is beyond your engineering skills you have to accept it and ride what you can if you want to build something from bits of bikes from near and far thats not a problem if you want to ride in a brit specials class not a problem if you want to ride that old heavy weight rigid that drips oil and weighs two ton thats not a problem.. theres room for us all on the sections

That is plain snobbery. I have a £7k super trick James/Cub/BSA but I'm not going to let Joe Bloggs build something on a budget to compete against me, he'll have to watch from the sidelines - THE SCOTTISH REMEMBER HAS NO SPECIALS CLASS. So you're effectively saying only the rich or gifted can compete in that event to stand any chance of winning, the plebs can bounce off the rocks on some standard crock of ****. Good way to encourage people.

Just for the record, there is no intention of malice in my posts, I have nothing personal against the clubs or members mentioned in this thread.

My point seems to be continually missed, which is, that I just cannot see the logic in the rules. The modified bikes no longer resemble British bikes, so the 'banned' components that people seem so affronted by would no longer detract from the appearance of a machine.

When did you see a Cub like this back in the early 60s. Yet it doesn't have to go in a specials class (except Yorks Classic for the Gator issue)

Edited January 31, 2011 by Woody

[davetom]

Well first of all can I applaud OTF for trying to cut a sensible swathe through the minefield that is `pre 65`.

I totally get where you are coming from in trying to rein in spending on implausible imitations of forks/yolks, which ,if they were just excellent imitations in nice materials ,ie hard to tell once powdercoated, would justify the cost, but they don`t even try to copy the original.

I`ll maybe offer a different viewpoint in that I`m new to pre65. I`m 42,I`ve ridden a pre 65 roadbike for 15yrs, but rode modern enduros.I built a C15 last winter, thoroughly enjoyed the process, and the only nod towards `fiddle` was Betor forks and yokes, simply because I went to 3 or 4 Miller rounds and they seemed the norm. I finished the bike last Feb, but my 1st child was born in April and was quite poorly for a while ,and the time/inclination to ride didnt happen last summer.

Fast forward to now, young son is fine and thoughts back to getting out on the bike, but after reading more and more as a poor substitute to riding, realise I`ve comitted a cardinal sin and virtually guaranteed a full trophy cupboard by using yokes with outboard pinch bolts!

I seriously considered getting some fiddle forks made, not so that I would win, no chance of that, I just thought that that seemed to be the standard of bike that the courses were set to,and also I didnt want to turn up ( not knowing anyone) and have them think I was taking the pee, with my obviously un British Betors.

Well after sussing out the prices and and realising that the bike wouldn`t look any older, but I would basically just have paid a pre65 `acceptance fee`, I decided that with my new focus as a father( rather than a selfish 30 something!), that I really couldn`t be a***d.

In the last few months also, I picked up a bog standard HT5, and although it feels like riding a Panther with knobblies (compared to the C15), I feel more inclined to head toward LDT`s or just enter it stock in the wobblers class, and move the C15 on, because its like my 16 yr old nephew, not a boy but not a man either and not sure where it belongs.

Its probably my naivety that I`d imagined pre 65 to be a collection of like minded individuals who liked messing about on out-of-date old iron.

One final question,( not directed at OTF or any of the other positive people on here who care about their sport and are doing something to improve it)...

did riders not enjoy trials til decent foreign forks came along?

Edited February 1, 2011 by DAVETOM

[jack_the_lad]

Hi Woody the bike you have shown in you picture has different frame to that triumph produced but the engine apart from the outer cover that is missing is nearer the mark than most. Would you like to have a say as to what its capacity is? The results of this bike are down to the rider. Do you think you would be ridding at this level at 65?

[woody]

Hi Woody the bike you have shown in you picture has different frame to that triumph produced but the engine apart from the outer cover that is missing is nearer the mark than most. Would you like to have a say as to what its capacity is? The results of this bike are down to the rider. Do you think you would be ridding at this level at 65?

I have no issue with the bike. I've nothing against the rider either so I'm not going to pick issue with certain components that I know are outside the rules and have actually been on the bike for more than a few years. It's a 230cc as he reckons that is the optimum for that motor. But is it a silhouette of a 60s bike? No. So again I ask, what's the point of the rules.

I've ridden in the same events as him for many many years now, actually finished ahead of him a few times, but no, I will never be as good or consistent as he is or have his ability. I'll be 65 in 13 years time and if we still have trials then I'll be both amazed and pleased. If I'm still riding I'll be even more pleased.

The results of that bike are certainly down to the rider. If you put an average or below average rider on it would their results improve? Assuming their bike is not at the same spec/level, most probably. Would they win the Scottish or Manx Classic on it. Of course not. But if the owner rode a standard Cub, how do you think he would fare against the other riders on their modified bikes. His results wouldn't be as good would they? He modified the bike for a reason and that began over 20 years ago.

As I've said numerous times before, I have no issue whatsoever with these modified bikes. If I sold a few twinshocks I could have a state of the art Cub or James, eligible for anything and stand me a chance of a damn good result in the Manx or Scotland. But I don't want one. I like my C15 but it has it's limitations in the bigger events, it's capable enough and has got me top 3 in the Manx day 1 more than once and a finish in the top 10, but the other bikes have an advantage. All I've tried to do is give myself a sporting chance against those bikes by using used components on a budget. But they are frowned upon and called 'special' in some places. That is what I think is the nonsense.

And STILL I can't get a reasoned or sensible response to my other posts. Has no-one got an opinion on the whether these silhouette rules serve any purpose any longer, given the non-silhouette appearance of the bikes and the examples of components I mentioned.

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy's,

Look most of you guy's seem to be missing the point entirely!

The idea of a British Twin-Shock class , is not trying to step on the toes,of the so called Pre65 bikes, far from it, if you want to build a bike for this class,and have the funds,(because most will want to build them "Trick") good luck to you. And I for one have no intentions of not building another one of these,(engineering marvels) because I will? why? because I love engineering, and fortunately have the skill to carry out most tasks to build one of these bikes.

But most people who would love to own and ride one of these bikes, just do not have the Skill,money, and especially time, and the facilities to build such a bike.

So what I thought was lets make the task of owning a "Brit-Shock" bike simpler! and affordable, with someone who has the adequate skill to build a bike up at home for this class, and it wont cost a fortune.

So you glean the parts from e-Bay etc, local bike scrap yards, and ask your mates if they have any spare bits lying around.

First off buy a British engine that is suitable, then a frame, that will fit the bill,then a set of Spanish,Italian or Japanese,forks with a front hub to suit, would seem like the best bet. Something like a Pit bike rear hub would suffice, if you could not find a Cub-Bantam one to hand. or better still a complete wheel from a trials bike.A tank that looked British would be best, a seat you could make yourself, (I made one out of plywood in the sixties), The rest of the bits you would have to get as you could afford them from someone like Trials-Bits.

When the bike was finished you could enter one of these new Brit-Shock classes, without any fear of ridicule. and have a right old time with your mates, on a Sunday morning.

This was the idea and nothing more sinister.

Regards Charlie. PS, you now have one of these trials to enter if you wish!!!

[jack_the_lad]

I have no issue with the bike. I've nothing against the rider either so I'm not going to pick issue with certain components that I know are outside the rules and have actually been on the bike for more than a few years. It's a 230cc as he reckons that is the optimum for that motor. But is it a silhouette of a 60s bike? No. So again I ask, what's the point of the rules.

I've ridden in the same events as him for many many years now, actually finished ahead of him a few times, but no, I will never be as good or consistent as he is or have his ability. I'll be 65 in 13 years time and if we still have trials then I'll be both amazed and pleased. If I'm still riding I'll be even more pleased.

The results of that bike are certainly down to the rider. If you put an average or below average rider on it would their results improve? Assuming their bike is not at the same spec/level, most probably. Would they win the Scottish or Manx Classic on it. Of course not. But if the owner rode a standard Cub, how do you think he would fare against the other riders on their modified bikes. His results wouldn't be as good would they? He modified the bike for a reason and that began over 20 years ago.

As I've said numerous times before, I have no issue whatsoever with these modified bikes. If I sold a few twinshocks I could have a state of the art Cub or James, eligible for anything and stand me a chance of a damn good result in the Manx or Scotland. But I don't want one. I like my C15 but it has it's limitations in the bigger events, it's capable enough and has got me top 3 in the Manx day 1 more than once and a finish in the top 10, but the other bikes have an advantage. All I've tried to do is give myself a sporting chance against those bikes by using used components on a budget. But they are frowned upon and called 'special' in some places. That is what I think is the nonsense.

And STILL I can't get a reasoned or sensible response to my other posts. Has no-one got an opinion on the whether these silhouette rules serve any purpose any longer, given the non-silhouette appearance of the bikes and the examples of components I mentioned.

The engine is a 200cc I know what size it is because I have done work on it. As I said it is down to the rider at the en of the day. A lot of people presume its a big engine because he wins alot.