Front aux tank yes or no?

[scottishsteve]

I would say its high time for the SSDT rule committee to accept a standard & safe 'bottle' for riders to carry around - so they are not ridung against the rules.

C'mon SSDT time for a minor tweak to the rules here and at the same time ensure safety.

Me were I to ride again a bottle & Hebo tank would be a must ! (As you never know if you will need it or not)

Cheers

GAW

they do let you carry fuel in a hebo fuel tank

[02-apr]

To be honest I can't see the point in paying a large amount of money for the latest in cutting edge trials technology then strapping a kilo (of liquid which moves about) to the steering, of all places. I'm sure the MoT man would have a good laugh before failing a bike so presented.

I'm not going to query the Club, they know best the factors they have to take in to account, but if a Sigg petrol bottle is deemed safe for hikers to carry fuel round the countryside on their backs and brew up at intervals on the hill then it should be safe enough to have in a bag on a trials rider's back with no stoves involved?

Perhaps manufacturers could resurrect the "Scottish" tank, I thought Gas Gas did a while ago. I think I'd rather have a slightly taller tank than liquid slopping about the steering head.

Edited February 17, 2011 by 2/4

[highland lassie]

Given the the FACT that most riders carry a 'bottle' and the fact that modern trials bikes have small fuel tanks - I would say its high time for the SSDT rule committee to accept a standard & safe 'bottle' for riders to carry around - so they are not ridung against the rules.

C'mon SSDT time for a minor tweak to the rules here and at the same time ensure safety.

There's a whole host of reasons that we have regulations like this for the SSDT, but I'll stick to the two main ones.

Whilst it may well be legal to carry spare fuel in specific containers, that doesn't mean it's permissible. As a company, Edinburgh & District MC have a responsiblity to adhere to health and safety regulations and do everything we can to make the event as safe as possible. Any of you who have organised an event on this scale will be more than aware of all the risk assessments, red tape and other regulations that you have to go through to get permission to run the trial at all. The fact that we're transporting fuel at all gives us numerous headaches - throw 270 riders unnecessarily carrying their own fuel in varying receptacles into the equation and your chances of getting through any risk assessment changes somewhat!

The other main reason for restricting the carrying of fuel is something that is key to the future of the SSDT, and something that is always overlooked. Our landowners. It's easy to forget that the SSDT is not run across common ground, open roads and suchlike - a huge percentage of it is run across private land. We're reliant on the goodwill of almost one hundred different landowners, all of whom are very accommodating, but we do have limits within which we have to work. It's kind enough of them to let us run 300+ bikes across their ground for a week - if we were to start letting riders carry additional fuel across their ground too we'd run the risk of losing at least some of them. Parts of the trial run across SSSIs (Sites of Specific Scientific Interest) and carrying fuel across those areas is a complete no-no.

The long and short of it is that rules are not just there for the riders. They're there to protect the club, protect the land, protect the landowners, and ultimately to protect the future of the SSDT.

You're riding on other people's land, enjoying their territory, their views and at their expense. The least you can do to show your appreciation is abide by their rules. You'd do well to remember that riding across the ground that the SSDT covers is a priviledge, not a right.

[scottishsteve]

its you the riders that can get us kicked of the land.

[effsweet]

What an interesting thread.

It's over 40 years since I last rode [not very] competitively, & 20 years since I first went to watch the Scottish. I knew the answer to the question without thinking. You are NOT allowed to carry spare fuel in a backpack, the penalty is exclusion. How do I know? I've read the Supplementary Regs!

As has been outlined the Organisers tread a tightrope & the most important thing is to preserve the future of the Event at all costs, while there are Organisers out there willing to put on the event for YOU!

Yesterday we had a phone call "Where's my Club Mmembership card?" When did you send it off? "Not sure" What's your name? "Chris X'

We processed a batch yesterday but I don't remember that name. I'll check the Membership Forms. No we havent had one from you. Who did you send it to? "The Club Secretary" Ah I'm the Membership Secretary - thats who you send Membership Applications to. "Oh" [it's says that on the website!]

Right, do you want an [ACU] Licence Application or Trials Registration stamped & signed. "No, I've got this old Suzuki off road .... & I just want to ride it" Well our Club will run 2 Centre Trials & 3 Hare & Hound events this year. It sounds as if our H&H's are what you want. I'll check with the Club Secretary if she's got your application & let you know.

10 minutes later Chris X calls again. Oh I see you organise events I just want to get out & ride. Can you send my cheque back when you get it? Do you know where I can just go & ride?

Now we are in difficulty, Chris X obviously doesn't read the Club website where he read about how to join the Club. He just wants to 'ride'.

A a responsible Club we don't want him to just 'ride' & help add to the bad image of motor cycling in general. If we said RUPP would he know what we meant? Will he be road legal when he just 'rides' We are already losing llocal Trials venues with decades of continuous use because of illegal riding.

So we chose not to give any pointers to our friend Chris X. Most riders who ride competitively want to practice, in the main they seek permission. The future of off road sport & the big events like the SSDT & Scott Trial IS imperilled by thoughtless riders who 'just want to ride' Organised Events have enough enemies as it is without the bad publicity that some 'riders' bring us. Were we right to choose not to give him any pointers? On balance we believe we were - what do you think?

So spare a thought for the Organisers who have this balancing act to perform, not appearing to be too officious [No you can't take fuel in a backpack on penalty of exclusion] to riders while retaining the trust & confidence of our Landowners. The warnings in both SSDT & Scott to Spectators also need to be understood & acted upon by us all as well.

Keep your feet up: effsweet

[gizza5]

I have said in my previuos post that it is not allowed, but the fact remains that people do and people will this year, so what do you do about it? and it ain't easy?

Check every riders rucksack to make sure they haven't got any, then you are going to have a fair few riders pushing their bikes off the long moor crossings. To elimanate this you then might have Dad, Uncle or brother walking back up the moors with a fuel can to make sure their rider is ok, this is probably a worse scenario?

I have seen guys pushing their bikes off the moors a long long way from any fuel check, I have seen riders at the fuel checks getting fuel to take back to riders stuck out there, this cause two problems carrying fuel and going backwards on the course?

The SSDT is about the long moor crossings Thursday being one of my favourite days, take it easy on the throttle and pull high gears you will get across no problems if not hope you got a good set of legs

[highland lassie]

I have said in my previuos post that it is not allowed, but the fact remains that people do and people will this year, so what do you do about it? and it ain't easy?

Check every riders rucksack to make sure they haven't got any, then you are going to have a fair few riders pushing their bikes off the long moor crossings. To elimanate this you then might have Dad, Uncle or brother walking back up the moors with a fuel can to make sure their rider is ok, this is probably a worse scenario?

I have seen guys pushing their bikes off the moors a long long way from any fuel check, I have seen riders at the fuel checks getting fuel to take back to riders stuck out there, this cause two problems carrying fuel and going backwards on the course?

The SSDT is about the long moor crossings Thursday being one of my favourite days, take it easy on the throttle and pull high gears you will get across no problems if not hope you got a good set of legs

As you very well know, we can't enforce this rule any more than we can man every inch of the course to make sure every other rule in the book is being adhered to.

You're all adults, you all sign the declaration saying you'll abide by the rules, and as with anything else in this world there has to be an element of trust out there. Ride sensibly, stick to the route and you'll have more than enough fuel. Thrash your bike, try to be smart and cut the route and you stand a good chance of running out and getting yourself stranded. There will always be someone who rides carefully, sticks the rules and still ends up tipping half the fuel out of their bike, but that's part and parcel of the Scottish.

It's up to each individual whether they choose to stick to the rules, as they agreed they would when they signed up for the place....the place that two hundred other people are queuing up for. If they opt to flaunt them, then on their heads be it - they needn't bother coming crying to me when they don't get an entry again in the future.

[copemech]

I think I might have a flask of whiskey in the backpack. Crap runs fine in a bike. If you mix in castor oil, will give a good cleaning out as well!

[mexmex]

I think I might have a flask of whiskey in the backpack. Crap runs fine in a bike. If you mix in castor oil, will give a good cleaning out as well!

In that case, I might bring with me some Tequila. It's oily enough so no any additives needed!

Tomorrow practice with the Hebo Aux tank full. I will just get used to it since I don't have any intention crossing the event rules.

Cheers!

Edited February 20, 2011 by MexMex

[toofasttim]

Yoram, I see in the entry list your nationality is down as Israeli so are you riding on an Israeli or Mexican license? If Israeli you may be the first. Big John or other SSDT historians?

[mexmex]

Yoram, I see in the entry list your nationality is down as Israeli so are you riding on an Israeli or Mexican license? If Israeli you may be the first. Big John or other SSDT historians?

I'm Israeli leaving in Mexico for the last 10 years. Since I'm holding an Israeli passport, I have to present Israeli Licensee per FIM rules.

It's funny somehow, 'cos I'm playing both stages at the same time. It will be covered by Israeli magazine but Mexican as well...I got Israeli sponsors but Mexican as well...I will even print both flags on the sweatshirt we will do...

So I will be the 1st Israeli but the 1st Mexican as well!

[scoobydo]

There's a whole host of reasons that we have regulations like this for the SSDT, but I'll stick to the two main ones.

Whilst it may well be legal to carry spare fuel in specific containers, that doesn't mean it's permissible. As a company, Edinburgh & District MC have a responsiblity to adhere to health and safety regulations and do everything we can to make the event as safe as possible. Any of you who have organised an event on this scale will be more than aware of all the risk assessments, red tape and other regulations that you have to go through to get permission to run the trial at all. The fact that we're transporting fuel at all gives us numerous headaches - throw 270 riders unnecessarily carrying their own fuel in varying receptacles into the equation and your chances of getting through any risk assessment changes somewhat!

The other main reason for restricting the carrying of fuel is something that is key to the future of the SSDT, and something that is always overlooked. Our landowners. It's easy to forget that the SSDT is not run across common ground, open roads and suchlike - a huge percentage of it is run across private land. We're reliant on the goodwill of almost one hundred different landowners, all of whom are very accommodating, but we do have limits within which we have to work. It's kind enough of them to let us run 300+ bikes across their ground for a week - if we were to start letting riders carry additional fuel across their ground too we'd run the risk of losing at least some of them. Parts of the trial run across SSSIs (Sites of Specific Scientific Interest) and carrying fuel across those areas is a complete no-no.

The long and short of it is that rules are not just there for the riders. They're there to protect the club, protect the land, protect the landowners, and ultimately to protect the future of the SSDT.

You're riding on other people's land, enjoying their territory, their views and at their expense. The least you can do to show your appreciation is abide by their rules. You'd do well to remember that riding across the ground that the SSDT covers is a priviledge, not a right.

Ok I fully understand the 'handcuffs' you are forced to wear whilst orgainising this fantastic event (SSDT) However from time to time its good to take a new look at what you are doing and ask yourself if any aspect can be improved / tweeked etc.

Fundamentally the SSDT is excellent - but this discussion thread has brought up this issue regarding fuel.

To simply say 'Whilst it may well be legal to carry spare fuel in specific containers, that doesn't mean it's permissible' this does NOT answer the requirements of the MODERN trials bike. 2.5 Ltrs of fuel is barely enough - and thats not the riders fault its down to the development the way the modern trials bikes have gone in the last few years. In any other trial its adequate - In the SSDT its not ! Fall off and spill some of your fuel onto the SSSI land (which can and does happen) The idea that carrying fuel over this land is bad (because its in a container) is a non argument because the simple fact that a bike is passing over this 'special' land is risk in itself and may or may not leak some fuel out. So how can it be a complete no no to carry fuel on this basis ? It does just not make sense !

Of course EVERYTHING should be done to protect the future use of the land used for not just the SSDT but all trials events. SO with this objective in mind - and due to the NEED to have spare fuel avaliable to get a bike off the moors (if needed) I believe its high time to close this grey area once and for all, and for the orgainisers to allow an 'approved bottle' that the riders can choose (or not) to carry in case of need. The hebo fork tanks are not the answer in alot of riders opinion (and isnt that what counts? Rider opinion??).

I am not suggesting that any old bottle is allowed only one type and that its approved by the Club / ACU / SACU whoever.

I would have thought that if the Clubs technical advisor were to endorse this then there would be amicable acceptance by the land owners that this practice be both safe and acceptable. It could be argued that this allowance could be in the INTERESTS of health and saftey - not having the push a bike over soft / rocky / difficult ground etc etc etc!

I dont think its fair to suggest that riders would 'throw away' empty bottles - maybe log them out / log them in or similar? If riders are aware of the need to retain emply bottles then in this enlightened to environment day and age they will not discard in a wrong way.

Hand them out in the morning / hand them back at night - I am sure there is a simple soloution to this aspect.

As for the risk assesment argument. This would be dealt with by ALLOWING a safe & approved bottle - rather than turning a blind eye to what is currently taking place. Accepting that any 'offender' is outside of rules will cover the 'hind side of the club, not enforcing the rule however, wont.

Yes the rules are there to protect the current staus quo but they should never be regarded as somthing that can never be adjusted to suit changes overtime.

Of course the rules currently say not to carry fuel, but people do and people will (because you really have to - because 'steady on the throttle' as some say simply isn't a guarantee you will get off the longest moors) - so time to modernise the rule here - to help ensure the continued success of the best trial in the world !

Cheers

GAW

Edited February 20, 2011 by Scoobydo

[b40rt]

Or get bigger tanks on the bikes, never used to be a problem.

[mexmex]

As someone that never been there, I might ask a stupid question here...Is it so complicated to add another 1 or 2 refueling points so we can just have safe distance to cover? I'm asking that after a whole day with a heavy nose Beta Evo + Hebo tank...I didn't like it at all.

Edited February 21, 2011 by MexMex

[highland lassie]

Ok I fully understand the 'handcuffs' you are forced to wear whilst orgainising this fantastic event (SSDT) However from time to time its good to take a new look at what you are doing and ask yourself if any aspect can be improved / tweeked etc.

We do that every year, at the meeting immediately after the trial (May) and in the early stages of planning the following year (September). That is part of the reason that we changed the regulations to allow the Hebo auxiliary tanks for riders who feel the need to carry extra fuel.

Fundamentally the SSDT is excellent - but this discussion thread has brought up this issue regarding fuel.

To simply say 'Whilst it may well be legal to carry spare fuel in specific containers, that doesn't mean it's permissible' this does NOT answer the requirements of the MODERN trials bike. 2.5 Ltrs of fuel is barely enough - and thats not the riders fault its down to the development the way the modern trials bikes have gone in the last few years. In any other trial its adequate - In the SSDT its not !

Which is why the fuel checks are carefully measured out each year to make sure that the distances between each check are manageable. If you look back over the years in which fuel capacity has decreased on bikes, you'll find that the gaps between our fuel checks have shrunk accordingly, and for most routes you'll also find that the overall distance has decreased dramatically...where that hasn't happened the number of fuel checks have been increased.

Fall off and spill some of your fuel onto the SSSI land (which can and does happen) The idea that carrying fuel over this land is bad (because its in a container) is a non argument because the simple fact that a bike is passing over this 'special' land is risk in itself and may or may not leak some fuel out. So how can it be a complete no no to carry fuel on this basis ? It does just not make sense !

My bad. I should have included the key word 'unnecessary' in there - obviously fuel needs to traverse the ground or we'd all be walking it, but speak to anybody who organises trials that cross SSSI ground and you'll discover that it's no mean feat to get permission in the first place.

Of course EVERYTHING should be done to protect the future use of the land used for not just the SSDT but all trials events. SO with this objective in mind - and due to the NEED to have spare fuel avaliable to get a bike off the moors (if needed) I believe its high time to close this grey area once and for all, and for the orgainisers to allow an 'approved bottle' that the riders can choose (or not) to carry in case of need. The hebo fork tanks are not the answer in alot of riders opinion (and isnt that what counts? Rider opinion??).

I am not suggesting that any old bottle is allowed only one type and that its approved by the Club / ACU / SACU whoever.

I would have thought that if the Clubs technical advisor were to endorse this then there would be amicable acceptance by the land owners that this practice be both safe and acceptable. It could be argued that this allowance could be in the INTERESTS of health and saftey - not having the push a bike over soft / rocky / difficult ground etc etc etc!

We've already expanded the rules to cover the Hebo tank. Yes, it may not be what every rider wants, but if we were to change the rules to suit every rider's personal opinion it'd be a funny looking trial! The long and short of it is that the route is measured out so that no additional fuel is required (with the possible exception of the Evo) - we already allow the Hebo tank for extra, there should be no need for further additional fuel to be carried. There will always be exceptional situations where something happens where the additional fuel would help, but 'exceptional' is the key word there. We don't change the rules to cover exceptional.

I dont think its fair to suggest that riders would 'throw away' empty bottles - maybe log them out / log them in or similar? If riders are aware of the need to retain emply bottles then in this enlightened to environment day and age they will not discard in a wrong way.

Hand them out in the morning / hand them back at night - I am sure there is a simple soloution to this aspect.

I have never even mentioned the discard of bottles - it didn't cross my mind to be honest. As for logging them in and logging them out - we hardly have enough volunteers to cover manning the sections on a day-to-day basis, so unless you fancy coming up for the week and hanging about the Parc Ferme from 7am to 7pm to hand bottles out and collect them back in for us, that simply isn't going to happen!

As for the risk assesment argument. This would be dealt with by ALLOWING a safe & approved bottle - rather than turning a blind eye to what is currently taking place. Accepting that any 'offender' is outside of rules will cover the 'hind side of the club, not enforcing the rule however, wont.

Which is exactly what we've done by allowing the Hebo auxiliary tank. We're not turning a blind eye by any stretch of the imagination, and if we had the manpower to enforce every rule to the limit, then we'd happily do so...again, feel free to volunteer for the week and come up to help us if you feel strongly about it!

Yes the rules are there to protect the current staus quo but they should never be regarded as somthing that can never be adjusted to suit changes overtime. Of course the rules currently say not to carry fuel, but people do and people will (because you really have to - because 'steady on the throttle' as some say simply isn't a guarantee you will get off the longest moors) - so time to modernise the rule here - to help ensure the continued success of the best trial in the world !

And so we come back to the start - the rules are reviewed every year and are adjusted as appropriate. Yes there is a chance you won't get off the hill on the longest moors if you don't ride sensibly...the same as there is a chance you'll be excluded if you miss a section, or that you'll get stuck if your engine boils, or that you'll be late on time if you take the wrong turning. It's a risk you take when you enter the trial.

Which takes us to entering the trial - everyone knows the rules when they sign up. If you don't like them, don't enter.