kanur Posted June 24, 2011 Report Share Posted June 24, 2011 First off this is not a slam against Sammy Miller Products as I have a lot of them on this bike. It is a request for help solving a problem. This bike replaces my wife's old Montesa 123. She really like the looks of a tank/seat combo so a new one was ordered for the little TY. A US vendor that sells these recommends sealing them so I used a method that worked great on the Montesa tank. The first weekend of riding the bike was great. After it sat for a week it would not run for her and I could tell the pilot was clogged. When cleaning it I found a fair amount of varnish on the slide. After the carb cleaning the bike ran fine for the rest of the day. The next day brought problems again. This time the bike would start and run but the throttle was sticking. Upon inspection the slide was covered with a very sticky varnish looking stuff. A look inside the tank brought horror! The sealer looked amber colored and was tacky to the touch. I could push my finger nail into it and scratch it and tank material away. Well I manned up and assumed my sealer job failed and ruined the tank. I called SMP and told them what I had done and ordered another tank ($$$) and ask them if they had any thoughts on the problem. They said they had heard of ethanol problems but did not have any recommendations. SMP really ship fast and the new tank was in my garage in just a few days. Not wanting to try (or able to afford)the sealer again I just rinsed the tank out with fuel and put it on the bike. Once again the little bike delivered a nice weekend of riding. Well.... after setting for a few days and getting the bike out it did not run real crisp and a slight sticking of the throttle was noticed but I did not have time that day to look into it. The next day the bike would start but the throttle would stick horribly. Pulling the slide out showed even more sticky stuff on the slide and inside the carb. You could actually leave finger prints in it. pulling the fuel cap once again revealed horror! The inside of the tank had an amber color and I could scrape away a layer with my finger nail. I made a call to SMP but they had no idea what was going on and had not had any other complaints, though mine had been the only tanks sent to the US recently. They want me to return the tanks for inspection which I will. The fuel I put in them is just 91 octane regular pump fuel with Golden Spectro oil with a 50 to 1 mix that I use in everything I own, ie: bikes, chainsaw, weedeater, ect. I have the same fuel in my Saracen with a glass tank and no problems with it or the yard tools. I have now put the stock tank back on and after cleaning the carb of the gunk (and hoping the gas would clean the gunk off the reeds and crank and bearings) The bike is working fine again using the exact same fuel from my storage can. I wish I had a way to send SMP some of the stuff I dumped from the tanks. Any thoughts would be appreciated. I am going to send a link of this thread to SMP so maybe they can get some ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy.t Posted June 24, 2011 Report Share Posted June 24, 2011 First off this is not a slam against Sammy Miller Products as I have a lot of them on this bike. It is a request for help solving a problem. This bike replaces my wife's old Montesa 123. She really like the looks of a tank/seat combo so a new one was ordered for the little TY. A US vendor that sells these recommends sealing them so I used a method that worked great on the Montesa tank. The first weekend of riding the bike was great. After it sat for a week it would not run for her and I could tell the pilot was clogged. When cleaning it I found a fair amount of varnish on the slide. After the carb cleaning the bike ran fine for the rest of the day. The next day brought problems again. This time the bike would start and run but the throttle was sticking. Upon inspection the slide was covered with a very sticky varnish looking stuff. A look inside the tank brought horror! The sealer looked amber colored and was tacky to the touch. I could push my finger nail into it and scratch it and tank material away. Well I manned up and assumed my sealer job failed and ruined the tank. I called SMP and told them what I had done and ordered another tank ($$$) and ask them if they had any thoughts on the problem. They said they had heard of ethanol problems but did not have any recommendations. SMP really ship fast and the new tank was in my garage in just a few days. Not wanting to try (or able to afford)the sealer again I just rinsed the tank out with fuel and put it on the bike. Once again the little bike delivered a nice weekend of riding. Well.... after setting for a few days and getting the bike out it did not run real crisp and a slight sticking of the throttle was noticed but I did not have time that day to look into it. The next day the bike would start but the throttle would stick horribly. Pulling the slide out showed even more sticky stuff on the slide and inside the carb. You could actually leave finger prints in it. pulling the fuel cap once again revealed horror! The inside of the tank had an amber color and I could scrape away a layer with my finger nail. I made a call to SMP but they had no idea what was going on and had not had any other complaints, though mine had been the only tanks sent to the US recently. They want me to return the tanks for inspection which I will. The fuel I put in them is just 91 octane regular pump fuel with Golden Spectro oil with a 50 to 1 mix that I use in everything I own, ie: bikes, chainsaw, weedeater, ect. I have the same fuel in my Saracen with a glass tank and no problems with it or the yard tools. I have now put the stock tank back on and after cleaning the carb of the gunk (and hoping the gas would clean the gunk off the reeds and crank and bearings) The bike is working fine again using the exact same fuel from my storage can. I wish I had a way to send SMP some of the stuff I dumped from the tanks. Any thoughts would be appreciated. I am going to send a link of this thread to SMP so maybe they can get some ideas. I have a sammy miller tank and seat unit like yours only mine is a fair bit older, never had any problems with it up until they started to add ethanol,then all of the problems you mentioned started. The solution is to drain the tank and leave the cap off to let the tank breath, remove the main jet from the carb and dump the fuel after riding.This is what I have been doing for about the last year and don't get any more problems.Im now running with a bigger pilot jet and a grade cooler plug because the motor was also running hotter than it use to, which I think is down to the petrol yet again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanur Posted June 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2011 (edited) I have a sammy miller tank and seat unit like yours only mine is a fair bit older, never had any problems with it up until they started to add ethanol,then all of the problems you mentioned started. The solution is to drain the tank and leave the cap off to let the tank breath, remove the main jet from the carb and dump the fuel after riding.This is what I have been doing for about the last year and don't get any more problems.Im now running with a bigger pilot jet and a grade cooler plug because the motor was also running hotter than it use to, which I think is down to the petrol yet again. Thanks for the reply Andy. I guess that could be an option. The first tank has hardened back up now that it has been sitting open and empty but that seems extreme for a brand new tank. After all it IS a fuel tank. Is the sticky goop resin that is dissolving? Could a different resin be used? Edited June 24, 2011 by kanur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totalshell Posted June 24, 2011 Report Share Posted June 24, 2011 deffo the ethanol in your fuel old chap and i believe that you chaps have w higher percentage than we do in the UK, this is an issue that became obviuos late last and early this year with glassfibre tanks ( at least one retirement in the pre65 scottish confirmed as a result)and older sealer been particulary sensitive to the ethanol alternative resins in the make up of tanks are available ( at a little price) as are alternative sealers . knowledge of the issue i would expect as a minimum from a tank retailer we even had an article 6 months ago in our club newsletter. there are no guarantees in life but some purport to have the answers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy.t Posted June 24, 2011 Report Share Posted June 24, 2011 Thanks for the reply Andy. I guess that could be an option. The first tank has hardened back up now that it has been sitting open and empty but that seems extreme for a brand new tank. After all it IS a fuel tank. Is the sticky goop resin that is dissolving? Could a different resin be used? I wouldn't trust any sealer. I know several guys that have tried various brands and they all result in the same mess. I would just do what I have been doing it only takes 5mins but does save a load of hassle in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon v8 Posted June 24, 2011 Report Share Posted June 24, 2011 On of my TY250's has had an SM tank / seat unit on it since I bought it in 06. In 08 ish I had problems with small bits of the white plastic blocking the carb.I just gave it a good wash out and dried it throughly - no problems since.It often will sit for a month 1/2 full of fuel after a trial without being used. A mate of mine has had terrible problems with all of his Whitehawks and even uses 4 star leaded petrol. Other mates have complained about fuel going stale quickly causing problems with chainsaws too,mine dont seem to suffer at all.My fuel comes from the garage in the local village on account,I never take any notice of who delivers it. I thought people were using leaded plane fuel to get over Ethanol problems because it is not included to stop icing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanur Posted June 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2011 On of my TY250's has had an SM tank / seat unit on it since I bought it in 06. In 08 ish I had problems with small bits of the white plastic blocking the carb.I just gave it a good wash out and dried it throughly - no problems since.It often will sit for a month 1/2 full of fuel after a trial without being used. A mate of mine has had terrible problems with all of his Whitehawks and even uses 4 star leaded petrol. Other mates have complained about fuel going stale quickly causing problems with chainsaws too,mine dont seem to suffer at all.My fuel comes from the garage in the local village on account,I never take any notice of who delivers it. I thought people were using leaded plane fuel to get over Ethanol problems because it is not included to stop icing. We have had another TY 175 a few years ago that also had a SM seat/tank combo and it could sit for months with no problem. My Saracen has a 40 year old fiberglass tank on it that has the exact same fuel in it and I rode it yesterday with no problems and it has been sitting for weeks. My chainsaw and weed eater also work fine with fuel in them for weeks if not months. My understanding is the ethanol may cause bubbling or soft spots over a long time. These tanks are brand new and had fuel in them less than a week. They are leaching some kind of very sticky substance all over the slide and throat of the carb in just a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted June 25, 2011 Report Share Posted June 25, 2011 The alcohol used in our fuels at about a 10% rate will deteriorate standard polyester fiberglass resin. Leaching polymers which wind up in carbs and engines. The fact it happened so quickly may be due to the fact the product was new and had not cured for ages, as it seems many report good results using the Caswells sealer in old succeptable tanks. Ethyl alcohol is the cleanup liquid for poly resin, cuts it like a knife! You need Avgas or race fuel to avoid the alcohol totally it seems, although there is a website that lists places where you can still get non-laced auto/ farm fuel, in rural areas. Them guys making tanks need to go to a modern epoxy resin and get off the old standard poly stuff in this world for sure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted June 25, 2011 Report Share Posted June 25, 2011 Strange stuff this ethanol in fuel My old slimline Bultaco, model 92, now owned by someone else and used regularly for the last 10 years and left with fuel in it, still has the original fibreglass tank/seat and so far shows no sign of being affected by it. No liner or treatment, nothing. Yet I've seen an Ariel fibreglass tank, no idea how old it was, turned to jelly inside - as described above. Makes no sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy.t Posted June 25, 2011 Report Share Posted June 25, 2011 Strange stuff this ethanol in fuel My old slimline Bultaco, model 92, now owned by someone else and used regularly for the last 10 years and left with fuel in it, still has the original fibreglass tank/seat and so far shows no sign of being affected by it. No liner or treatment, nothing. Yet I've seen an Ariel fibreglass tank, no idea how old it was, turned to jelly inside - as described above. Makes no sense. Your right it does not make any sense, something else I couldn't understand was my bike with the SM tank on doesn't look too bad on the outside with regards to the ethanol eating into it, but have had loads of problems with the contents blocking the carb, my mates SM tank looks really bad with loads of blisters and soft spots, yet he has had no problems with the carb and the bike always runs a treat....bizarre...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_nc Posted June 25, 2011 Report Share Posted June 25, 2011 Couple of comments: One: Use race fuel. It is usually 110 octane with no corn added. Most hot rod shops carry it. It will be about $1.50 more per gallon but you don't have to drain everything after every ride. For the small amount of gas you use it really isn't all that expensive. Two: I have had very good success with Caswell's. But ..... suggestion number one is the safer option. I coated a model 92 Bultaco tank with it over 5 years ago and it's still fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanur Posted June 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2011 (edited) The alcohol used in our fuels at about a 10% rate will deteriorate standard polyester fiberglass resin. Leaching polymers which wind up in carbs and engines. The fact it happened so quickly may be due to the fact the product was new and had not cured for ages, as it seems many report good results using the Caswells sealer in old succeptable tanks. Ethyl alcohol is the cleanup liquid for poly resin, cuts it like a knife! You need Avgas or race fuel to avoid the alcohol totally it seems, although there is a website that lists places where you can still get non-laced auto/ farm fuel, in rural areas. Them guys making tanks need to go to a modern epoxy resin and get off the old standard poly stuff in this world for sure! copemech I think you have hit the nail on the head. The world we live in and the fuels we use have changed. Ethanol is not new and people who are molding products made to hold fuel should be ahead of the curve not behind it. SMP has a lot of very useful products at very fair prices. I hope the tank issues can be worked out. Edited June 25, 2011 by kanur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majesty320 Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) Just bought some sealer from dragon fly motors supposed to be tested on 100% ethanol, not used it yet but will let you know Edited July 12, 2011 by majesty320 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgshannon Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 seems many report good results using the Caswells sealer in old succeptable tanks. Had Caswells recommended to me by an old pro at fiberglass tank restoration. After trying many options, his take was that it was "the only thing to use." I sealed the tank on my Montesa 247 with great success, and no follow on problems. Cured up as hard as a rock. But, I made it a practice to always drain the tank when planning to let it sit for more than a week. - Darrell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanur Posted September 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Well..... It's been about 2 1/2 months since I first posted this so it's time for an updated. When I first posted here I also sent a link to this thread to SMP so they could hear other peoples comments also. Richard from SMP contacted me and said they were in the process of making their tanks with a different method to work with the ethanol in fuel. They were not yet ready then but they would send me one to test in the USA when they were available. I received one a few days ago and it will be going on a bike that still has the oil injection working and will be tested with straight pump gas. Richard is very easy to deal with and said he had no problem with me experimenting with the tanks I already had while waiting on the new one. I rinsed the one with no sealer out with lacquer thinner and let it air out for a week. I then bought some Aviation Fuel LL100 (low lead 100 octane ) NO CORN. The carb got a full cleaning and a new filter installed. This fuel has now been in that tank at least a month and a half and has worked perfect, no residue, no pilot jet clogs, no problems at all. I'll be trying the new tank out on pump gas and will pass on the results. If you have an older tank as others have said probably the best thing to do is use AvGas if you can and avoid the ethanol. Corn is for eating not adding to fuel! Again Richard at SMP has been very helpful and concerned about keeping a customer happy. A refund was offered as well as the new tank. It's no fun to have a problem with a new part but it's good to know a vender will not leave you hanging. Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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