Beta Suspension

[nif40]

I currently own a Beta EVO. On occasion I ride other ppls bikes and I cannot understand why Beta is not using the 40mm Marzocchi forks along with its mating shock that GG is using? The 38mm Paioli forks just plain suck compared to the 40's. If you don't believe me, go ride a bike with the Marz on them before you comment.

So, is the choice solely a manufacturers choice (Beta) or is there some type of legalities that would prevent Beta from using a superior fork & shock? Beta uses basically a ZERO adjustable suspension set-up compared to it's competitor who uses a fully adjustable suspension (dampening & Rebound on both the fork & shock).

[technowaldo]

cant comment on the marzocchis but ive got to agree with you on the piaollis forks fitted to betas.they are useless .i cant notice a bit of difference between no rebound and full rebound.even a 10 year old dated set of showas are head and shoulders better than brand new piaollis

[telecat]

I do know a few riders who have had a Ohlins shock made for the rear of the EVO. Seems to be a mod most like. As for the Forks surely someone must do a Head and clamps that would fit the EVO and Marzocchis??

[nif40]

I started looking into converting my front forks over from the CRAPoli's to the Marzocchi but decided by the time I did the conversion my cost would be so high it just wouldn't be worth the effort. It is a shame that there is a better product on the market and BETA will not use it? I have already changed the front springs & rear spring to try to get my bike to behave somewhat reasonable. Before the front spring swap my forks would bottom out (hard) just doing front wheel hops in the front yard on flat ground and the rear was so sagged out (I weight 180lb) that my bike rode like a chopper. Because of the LACK of adjustment on the CRAPoli forks, I can't adjust the damping where I want it so the forks absorb big hits without having the fork rebound become so slow that the forks feel DEAD.

[liviob]

Honestly i like the Paioli setup. Once i learned how to adjust them i find them very easy to tune. All of the compression control is done on one fork and all of the rebound is controlled on the other fork. The Paioli fork and shock are both very good quality and very adjustable. Unfortunately as supplied from Beta they are not setup properly for an average to large size adult male rider. The fork is a little easyer to adjust by changing the spring and oil viscositys, and oil level. The shock can easily be opened and it has tunable shim stacks on the piston you can alter. You can also change the spring for your ride weight. I have been changing oil viscositys in the shock to alter compression feel with excellent results and as you know there is a rebound speed asdjuster on the shock. A good suspension shop can get you the springs you will need. They can also get you rebuild parts.

Here is a link to the instructions to opening the shock.

http://www.trialscentral.com/forums/topic/33584-suspension-setup/page__pid__254486#entry254486

Edited September 21, 2011 by Liviob

[carl ekblom]

I think the rear shock is OK but the front Paioli is crap. I am thinking of this Showa conversion http://www.jbanyeres.com/jb_parts/en/12-beta?p=2 It is expensive but it would really be an improvement . Are factory riders really using the Crapiolis?

/Carl

[nif40]

Compression is not controlled in the left fork leg (spring side) on the Paioli. The purpose of the spring is to hold the bike up in the stroke (free sag) and controls rider sag when standing on the bike, not compression control. Depending upon your weight you may have to change springs to obtain correct rider height. Yes, a heavier spring will be harder to compress, but it is relative to the rider weight. The right fork (with clicker) adjusts BOTH the damping & rebound at the same time. That means if you turn the screw "in" you are restricting flow in both directions (compression & rebound). This is the fundamental issue with the forks.

Example: If a person is an aggressive rider and takes big hits then more than likely he is going to want to increase compression damping so the fork will absorbing (through valving, not spring rate) the high energy. However, the same rider may want the rebound damping of the fork to be faster acting so hopping and steering is not compromised. Because the Paioli fork does not have separate compression & rebound control this particular rider is SOL if he happens to be riding a BETA. You can change the oil and this may help some, but you are still adjusting both compression & rebound simultaneously. You can adjust the oil height to resist bottoming, but this does nothing if I want to adjust my fork in both directions (the rate of change or metering of oil does not change by changing the air gap).

Disclaimer: I am not touting myself as a suspension expert, but I did stay at a Holiday in last night

[liviob]

I'm pretty sure your incorrect about your concept of how the paioli forks work Nif40. I have made many adjustments to change compression speed to the left fork leg by changing oil viscosity in increments of two Cs at a time and i am able to notice each adjustment. It does have a damper rod in it below the spring. I have not yet noticed any compression speed change after adjusting the rebound clicker on top of the right fork leg. In fact if you remove the right fork leg from the bike and loosen the cap so air can enter the fork freely. Compress it and you will not feel any compression resistance. Now extend it and you will feel resistance. I have not had the rebound cartridge apart, but based on my tuning experiances i'm pretty sure it does not control compression speed.

[liviob]

I think the rear shock is OK but the front Paioli is crap. I am thinking of this Showa conversion http://www.jbanyeres.com/jb_parts/en/12-beta?p=2 It is expensive but it would really be an improvement . Are factory riders really using the Crapiolis?

/Carl

Thanks for the link Carl. Even if the factory guys are using paioli forks the internals could be very different from what we get. I was talking with a freind of mine who tunes race bikes for a living and he said that it would probobly be possible to install inyards from a motocross mini bike which would have a tunable base valve into these paioli forks.

[nif40]

Liviob,

Thanks for the reply.

I did a bit of reading on the net (for whatever that is worth) regarding the Paioli forks. One article said that the right leg was compression/rebound and the other article said it was as you described below.

The 2nd article which matches what you say said this:

Right Leg (rebound)

Left Leg (spring)

Compression damping is not adjustable except by changing oil viscosity or modifying parts in the left leg.

I will take my forks off tonight and let you know what I find.

[liviob]

Liviob,

Thanks for the reply.

I did a bit of reading on the net (for whatever that is worth) regarding the Paioli forks. One article said that the right leg was compression/rebound and the other article said it was as you described below.

The 2nd article which matches what you say said this:

Right Leg (rebound)

Left Leg (spring)

Compression damping is not adjustable except by changing oil viscosity or modifying parts in the left leg.

I will take my forks off tonight and let you know what I find.

Great! Look forward to hear about what you find. I will be leaving tomarrow to a trial in the mountains and will probobly not be able to look at this again until next monday.

Edited September 22, 2011 by Liviob

[nif40]

Ok,

I did confirm from two different sources the following information regarding the Paioli fork.

Left Leg - contains the fork spring, Pre-load adjuster, & oil for lubrication. The only adjustment on the left leg is the pre-load adjustment for the spring.

Right Leg - there is a rebound adjustment only (no compression adjustment). The only way to adjust compression damping on the Paioli fork (at least the model used for Beta) is by changing oil viscosity or modify the valving in this leg.

[billyt]

Compression is not controlled in the left fork leg (spring side) on the Paioli. The purpose of the spring is to hold the bike up in the stroke (free sag) and controls rider sag when standing on the bike, not compression control. Depending upon your weight you may have to change springs to obtain correct rider height. Yes, a heavier spring will be harder to compress, but it is relative to the rider weight. The right fork (with clicker) adjusts BOTH the damping & rebound at the same time. That means if you turn the screw "in" you are restricting flow in both directions (compression & rebound). This is the fundamental issue with the forks.

Example: If a person is an aggressive rider and takes big hits then more than likely he is going to want to increase compression damping so the fork will absorbing (through valving, not spring rate) the high energy. However, the same rider may want the rebound damping of the fork to be faster acting so hopping and steering is not compromised. Because the Paioli fork does not have separate compression & rebound control this particular rider is SOL if he happens to be riding a BETA. You can change the oil and this may help some, but you are still adjusting both compression & rebound simultaneously. You can adjust the oil height to resist bottoming, but this does nothing if I want to adjust my fork in both directions (the rate of change or metering of oil does not change by changing the air gap).

Mmmm...........

[nif40]

Billy T

This is an online discussion site where people hold conversations in the form of posted messages. Regarding my post; I stand corrected on thinking that the Paioli fork adjustment (right fork) controlled both compression & rebound. However, I now have a better understanding of how they work (experience teaches us slowly the cost of mistakes). That still does not change the fact that the Paioli fork is not a fully adjustable fork like the Marzocchi forks. In regard to your post, I couldn't help notice that you seem a little agitated about something I said. Would you care to elaborate? Maybe you are a suspension guru, a set-up guy, a factory rider, or a 240lb bench racer? If you have something to say that would contribute to this post that I or someone else can gain from why not post it so your knowledge can be acquired by others?

I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday. ~Abraham Lincoln

[copemech]

Well, it seems Nif and Livio are in harmony now at least. Seems to me that in accordance with Livio's post that you have discovered the limitations of the forks!(which I believe are the same as the Sherco later style Paioli)

I have heard in the past that the Showa uses a superior valve system, yet unsure. The Zokes may be better as well, but to be honest, I am nott good enough nor wealthy enough for any of this to make a huge difference at the end of day. I set them and forget them , as I gotta ride what I brung, and in my testing of friends bikes, I found little difference launching a Mont off a 4ft rock at the end of a hard day, cannot comment on the Zokes, sure they are ok, which why I do not discount the Scorpa, which may have the best out there at this time. Feedback on the Rieger rear on the new gassres seems nill thusfar, but should be ok.