billyt Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 (edited) Billy T This is an online discussion site where people hold conversations in the form of posted messages. Regarding my post; I stand corrected on thinking that the Paioli fork adjustment (right fork) controlled both compression & rebound. However, I now have a better understanding of how they work (experience teaches us slowly the cost of mistakes). That still does not change the fact that the Paioli fork is not a fully adjustable fork like the Marzocchi forks. In regard to your post, I couldn't help notice that you seem a little agitated about something I said. Would you care to elaborate? Maybe you are a suspension guru, a set-up guy, a factory rider, or a 240lb bench racer? If you have something to say that would contribute to this post that I or someone else can gain from why not post it so your knowledge can be acquired by others? Naw, just a old fart that has been around trials for thirty years now! Seen ideas come and go! Seen new guys from motocross, enduro, etc come in and out of this sport. What have you not been able to do on the bike due to the front fork not being fully adjustable the way you want? I will say one thing and then go back into the shadows. Even though there is one adjustment for rebound and one for spring sag there are both independent rebound and compression adjustments one can make and we have been doing it for years now. I am not eluding you or playing games. You seem a very intelligent guy and will figure it out soon. The other guys online here know me and they can perhaps chime in on their thoughts also. "This is an online discussion site where people hold conversations in the form of posted messages." Oh and thanks for pointing out what this forum was for! Ten years on this site and I have been thinking it was a site for underwear models. LOL Cheers! Edited September 27, 2011 by BillyT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 "If they built a perfect bike, everyone would have it, but none could afford it!" And you can quote me on that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nif40 Posted September 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Billy, You can put a good rider on an average bike and he can do great things (I see it in the district I ride in frequently). My issue is not that the bike is limiting my ability to perform, but rather forcing me to altering the way in which I do certain things. I am not a heavy guy (180lb) and when performing simple hopping maneuvers (on flat ground) my forks completely bottom out. When going over large logs or going down very steep slopes with abrupt transition, my forks bottom out so hard I feel like my wrist are going to break (and yes, my oil levels are correct). I did change the fork springs to bring my rider sag within a more reasonable level, however, I am still blowing through the stroke (lack of compression damping) and bottoming my forks. Why should I alter my riding style due to fork limitations? Rebound is adjustable as we already discussed so no need to go there. Pre-load is adjustable & spring rate is adjustable as discussed. Compression can be altered with valving/shim stack, air chamber, and oil viscosity...understood. This method of compression adjustment is very tedious, inconvenient and time consuming. Guess what, there are better forks out there that have adjustments in the form of clickers that take care of the shim stack / viscosity games needed to be played with the Paioli forks. Just to clarify, I understand that I will never be a pro rider but if bike tuning is not really a limiting factor in how a bike performs then why even put adjusters on the forks at all? Why do they put air or fuel screw adjusters on carburetors? I wonder why Cody Webb didn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyt Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 (edited) Billy, You can put a good rider on an average bike and he can do great things (I see it in the district I ride in frequently). My issue is not that the bike is limiting my ability to perform, but rather forcing me to altering the way in which I do certain things. I am not a heavy guy (180lb) and when performing simple hopping maneuvers (on flat ground) my forks completely bottom out. When going over large logs or going down very steep slopes with abrupt transition, my forks bottom out so hard I feel like my wrist are going to break (and yes, my oil levels are correct). I did change the fork springs to bring my rider sag within a more reasonable level, however, I am still blowing through the stroke (lack of compression damping) and bottoming my forks. Why should I alter my riding style due to fork limitations? Rebound is adjustable as we already discussed so no need to go there. Pre-load is adjustable & spring rate is adjustable as discussed. Compression can be altered with valving/shim stack, air chamber, and oil viscosity...understood. This method of compression adjustment is very tedious, inconvenient and time consuming. Guess what, there are better forks out there that have adjustments in the form of clickers that take care of the shim stack / viscosity games needed to be played with the Paioli forks. Just to clarify, I understand that I will never be a pro rider but if bike tuning is not really a limiting factor in how a bike performs then why even put adjusters on the forks at all? Why do they put air or fuel screw adjusters on carburetors? I wonder why Cody Webb didn’t use the stock suspension provided by Beta on his national bike instead of a completely one off suspension set-up? How about the factory off-road guy’s that ride enduro or motocross bikes? Are they being sold a bill of goods from the suspension tuners? Why do they spend countless hours at the track dialing in their bikes if it didn’t matter? If you have never ridden an off-road bike that has been set-up by a tuner, I would highly recommend it as it will change your perspective. You will find yourself riding through, over, and around corners faster than you thought possible and walk away shaking your head at how drastic the difference is between a properly set-up bike and a bike that was bought off the show room floor, never adjusted and just ridden. From a rider’s perspective, I am not basing my opinions solely on my bike. I have ridden all of the latest brands of bikes, so I have a good idea of what each brand has to offer. My ridding partner just bought a new Gas Gas Raga with the new Rieger rear shock & marzocchi forks (fork and shock are fully adjustable compression/rebound via clickers). I have ridden sections on his bike and then ridden the same section on my bike back to back. What I can tell you is there is a difference between the bikes in regards to the suspension. The Marzocchi forks are progressive and far superior to the Paioli forks. The Rieger shock takes better hits and soaks up small trail junk like it’s not even there. Will my bike limit my ability to progress as a rider? No Will my bike do everything that the Raga will do? Yes Would my bike with a properly set-up front fork inspire confidence and allow me to concentrate on my riding instead of worrying about how bad it’s going to hurt when I land on the other side of the log? Yes LOL….I am glad I was able to clear up the whole underwear model thing. You lurking on this site for ten years to get a peek at men wearing a one piece is a little disturbing but whatever dude, it’s your life. Mmmm interesting how your mind drifted to MENS underwear? There was no mention of mens underwear in my post. I am still trying to get Andy to post pictures of the Paddock Girls in their underwear.? LOL I will tel you later on how to dial in your forks, granted they will not be as good as the others out there but will be a hell of a lot better than they are in stock form. Cheers! Edited September 28, 2011 by BillyT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
americanbeta Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Billy, You can put a good rider on an average bike and he can do great things (I see it in the district I ride in frequently). My issue is not that the bike is limiting my ability to perform, but rather forcing me to altering the way in which I do certain things. I am not a heavy guy (180lb) and when performing simple hopping maneuvers (on flat ground) my forks completely bottom out. When going over large logs or going down very steep slopes with abrupt transition, my forks bottom out so hard I feel like my wrist are going to break (and yes, my oil levels are correct). I did change the fork springs to bring my rider sag within a more reasonable level, however, I am still blowing through the stroke (lack of compression damping) and bottoming my forks. Why should I alter my riding style due to fork limitations? Rebound is adjustable as we already discussed so no need to go there. Pre-load is adjustable & spring rate is adjustable as discussed. Compression can be altered with valving/shim stack, air chamber, and oil viscosity...understood. This method of compression adjustment is very tedious, inconvenient and time consuming. Guess what, there are better forks out there that have adjustments in the form of clickers that take care of the shim stack / viscosity games needed to be played with the Paioli forks. Just to clarify, I understand that I will never be a pro rider but if bike tuning is not really a limiting factor in how a bike performs then why even put adjusters on the forks at all? Why do they put air or fuel screw adjusters on carburetors? I wonder why Cody Webb didn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamjayzee Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Tell you what gents, this is a good post! I've just bought an Evo, and when trying to decide what to buy I asked many questions on here. Nif's later post is as good as it gets when describing some very specific bike-related differences, even if it was to highlight suspension performance. As Nif alluded to, why change your style? From my point of view, I have ended up with a bike that suits my style. I don't suffer fork related issues, partly because my style clearly aligns to the bike and therefore doesn't expose the shortcomings (down hill/ over log control was a noteable plus compared to my Rev3), but mostly because I'm crap! Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liviob Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 (edited) Which year EVO do you have Nif40 mine is an 09. I will be taking my suspension apart within the week for service and tuning adjustments. I'll take pic's and post them if i can post them. If you have an 09 i have a setup that i think you will like. Edited September 28, 2011 by Liviob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 Which year EVO do you have Nif40 mine is an 09. I will be taking my suspension apart within the week for service and tuning adjustments. I'll take pic's and post them if i can post them. If you have an 09 i have a setup that i think you will like. Seems obvious that Livio has taken the time to do a bit of tuning and testing on these things. I would like to hear his results, even if it is all personal pref. Even within the limits of the basic fork, the variables here in tune with viscosity, levels and adjustments could run into the thousands! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liviob Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 (edited) Since Beta supplied the 09 290 evo with suspension springs for a rider weight of 125Lbs. or less i had to find the correct resistance spring set for my 255 Lbs. body weight. MCR suspension was able to build me a set of springs. The front spring is a .71kg and the rear is a .80kg straight rate spring. With these springs i can get the correct ride sag number of 2" with less than 8mm of preload added to the springs. The stock springs are front .61kg and rear .56/.60kg. Theres quite a difference in spring resistance. I couldnt dial in enough preload with the stock springs to get the suspension to work right. Using factory supplied hydrolic control settings these firmer springs require the use of faster oil or oil of a lower centistoke rate or the suspension will feel too firm on compression stroke. I'm not sure what 5wt. oil paioli supplied the forks with but i am using Redline 5wt in the rebound leg because thats whats on my shelf after previous experiments and i am using Bel-Ray HVI 3wt in the compression leg. It has a Cs value of 11. Both forks are set to factory oil level heights. The preload adjuster is now set to 2 1/4 turns in from full out. When i first opened the rear damper it had a thick blue oil in it which i have yet to identify. I'm pretty sure it was a ten Wt oil. In the rear damper i am now using Maxima 165-155 fork fluid because it has a Cs value of 32. This is a cs value in the lower range of the 10wt oils. I have the spring preload set at eight turns in from the moment the adjuster collar touches the spring. For a rider weight of 180lbs and up to maybe 230lbs this setup will provide a very plush initial travel and smoothly firming up to very good bottoming resistance. Minor preload sdjustments can be made for different rider weights as can oil Cs changes. This suspension change will make the 09 EVO feel much more stable. I like to set the chassis a little bit lower in the rear. This slows the steering some and allows the very steep downhills to feel safer. I started out using much less preload. I have noticed that these springs have settled many times since new. When i service the suspension again I will keep the same preload settings and switch to a higher Cs value oil front and rear for a firmer compression feel. I do agree with Nif40's initial complaint. It would make tuning much easeyer if the compression fork had an external adjuster and the rear damper had a compression speed adjuster added. Edited September 30, 2011 by Liviob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 Since Beta supplied the 09 290 evo with suspension springs for a rider weight of 125Lbs. or less i had to find the correct resistance spring set for my 255 Lbs. body weight. MCR suspension was able to build me a set of springs. The front spring is a .71kg and the rear is a .80kg straight rate spring. With these springs i can get the correct ride sag number of 2" with less than 8mm of preload added to the springs. The stock springs are front .61pkg and rear .56/.60kg. Theres quite a difference in spring resistance. I couldnt dial in enough preload with the stock springs to get the suspension to work right. Using factory supplied hydrolic control settings these firmer springs require the use of faster oil or oil of a lower centistoke rate or the suspension will feel too firm on compression stroke. I'm not sure what 5wt. oil paioli supplied the forks with but i am using Redline 5wt in the rebound leg because thats whats on my shelf after previous experiments and i am using Bel-Ray HVI 3wt in the compression leg. It has a Cs value of 11. Both forks are set to factory oil level heights. The preload adjuster is now set to 2 1/4 turns in from full out. When i first opened the rear damper it had a thick blue oil in it which i have yet to identify. I'm pretty sure it was a ten Wt oil. In the rear damper i am now using Maxima 165-155 fork fluid because it has a Cs value of 32. This is a cs value in the lower range of the 10wt oils. I have the spring preload set at eight turns in from the moment the adjuster collar touches the spring. For a rider weight of 180lbs and up to maybe 230lbs this setup will provide a very plush initial travel and smoothly firming up to very good bottoming resistance. Minor preload sdjustments can be made for different rider weights as can oil Cs changes. This suspension change will make the 09 EVO feel much more stable. I like to set the chassis a little bit lower in the rear. This slows the steering some and allows the very steep downhills to feel safer. I started out using much less preload. I have noticed that these springs have settled many times since new. When i service the suspension again I will keep the same preload settings and switch to a higher Cs value oil front and rear for a firmer compression feel. I do agree with Nif40's initial complaint. It would make tuning much easeyer if the compression fork had an external adjuster and the rear damper had a compression speed adjuster added. Humm, Livio, in trying to follow your thoughts here, and admittedly not havin analized thed things, am I not correct that the left(spring)side is still handling compression damping with a traditionl orface rod and cone? Has same minimal effect through the orfaces upon extension, which is negledgable as the other side takes over upon rebound? As at my weight, I do not neccessarily require heavier springs, I think my biggest bitch over time may be the harsh reaction upon compression over sharp edge bumps, usually at speed on the loop. Some can be a bit hurtfull! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liviob Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 Yes that seems logical, this setup may not work that way though since there is no check valve at the top of the damper rod allowing the rebound cartridge to perform extension control. What do you weigh and what bike are you talking about when you describe harshness. The 2011 EVO has a spike in the middle of the suspension travel. For my weight its not an issue, but for a rider under 200lbs it could be a concern. I think the reason a rider may experiance harsness during the compression stroke is because the manufactures have to try to fit the bike to a large range of rider weights. To accomplish this they use light spring resistance and try to control piston velocity and bottoming with firm hydrolic control. If they were to use much firmer springs and faster low speed valving and slower high speed valving there would be less issues with harshness. The springs that i am using could easily work for a 150lb rider if less preload were used and faster oil were installed. I think my current setup with the worn out oil would easily accomidate a 160lb rider. I think a 160lb rider would like the bouncy feel it has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyt Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 (edited) Not with standing all the technical research behind Livlob & Nif40 I and I do respect their technical knowledge! For the real world & 99% of club riders out there. Dump out the stock Italian fork oil that Beta got from Olive garden salads. Use 12 > 15 weight fork oil in the compression side, set sag! (should take care of bottoming out) Use 2.5 > 5 weight fork oil in the rebound side, set rebound adjustment per preference. (will rebound quickly) Go ride and enjoy! The Beta front forks are not perfect, no trials bike are, but they are dam good stock! This is a pragmatic, cheap, quick answer/test from one who has experienced MANY Beta's and has also experienced the bottoming out on drop offs and I only weigh 150lbs. Think about it! There is no need for the same viscosity of oil in each fork if they are performing different tasks? The other thing to keep in mind is temperature and altitude. The higher the temperature the thinner the oil is going to get this will dramatically change the way your fork works regardless off what shim stack or spring changes you make per Livlob & Nif40. The oil's job in any fork is to change the flow of oil into heat there bye displacing energy into the fork leg surface area, basically the fork leg acts like a heat sink drawing energy away from the slider. Basically if you ride in a hot part of the country your fork oil is going to get thinner and thinner as you ride that day. A 10 weight oil in the fork at the start of your ride in your compression fork may very quickly act like a 5 weight oil causing you to bottom out very easily as it heats up. By starting out with heavy oil (12 > 15) in the compression side it may act like a 10 weight oil still affording good compression resistance making the chances of bottoming out less after it heats up. The same is true for the rebound fork oil. It too will get thinner in a hot area as you ride. The thinner it gets the quicker the rebound will be, BUT you can adjust the dial at the top of the rebound fork to slow it down if need be! That is is why remote shock reservoirs in the back in order to allow a bigger container to draw heat away keeping the rear shock at a more cooler temperature by placement of the reservoir i.e. Ossa. Sorry guys, you are technically correct but unfair to the Beta forks and not very pragmatic solution for the average Joe out there who has forks that are bottoming out. Start simple! Oil is cheap and it is easy to try what I am suggesting. Respectfully BillyT Edited September 30, 2011 by BillyT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liviob Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 (edited) While your idea will slow the forks compression speed down the probability of the fork being harsh has been increased and the front to rear balance of the bike will be off. Also after being heated thicker oil is going to change viscosity more than thinner oil will. I am certain many people use this technique as an inexpensive solution to having too soft a fork spring. Having the correct front and rear springs made for your ride weight costs about $230. The tuning process could be made easyer if the suspension components had compression speed adjusters. Edited September 30, 2011 by Liviob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlracer Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 Heavier springs are available for the front and rear and help tremendously for larger riders. Yes, I do fit into this category and found that adding the springs was the way to go. Trainer and Copie you two don't fall any where near this. Copie you can now have a real beer! Nice reading these post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan williams Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 (edited) Wow, I've been off the forum for a while, busy at work, and all hell breaks loose. I seem to remember hearing Beta has a financial interest in Paioli but that may be incorrect. Without going into a long diatribe about suspension I will agree with Billy T's assessment.(note 1.) The Beta forks are not bad. They Edited September 30, 2011 by Dan Williams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.