christophers Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 For a year or two we had the ridiculous system where- a feet-up stop was a one one foot-down stop was a two two feet down stop was a three one dab was a one two dabs was a two three dabs was a three bounce sideways whilst moving was a clean bounce sideways whilst stationary was a five go backwards feet up or down was a five Try explaining that mess to a 'first time' observer five minutes before the start of a trial! In all the time I rode under this system, I was never given a two for a stationary dab. No wonder the ACU decided to go back to either stopping allowed or full non stop. Only my opinion but I believe that all trials should be non stop, (although I prefer to ride stopping allowed) we would quickly learn to accept the fact that a stop is a five and would ride accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telecat Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 Good Point about the younger riders. Most have been brought up on Stop rules and don't like "no-Stop". The SSDT and the Scott are often brought up as Successful "no-Stop" trials. They are however getting to be more "Enduro" than Trials and that type of timed event depends on riders getting though sections ASAP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gizza5 Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 Good Point about the younger riders. Most have been brought up on Stop rules and don't like "no-Stop". The SSDT and the Scott are often brought up as Successful "no-Stop" trials. They are however getting to be more "Enduro" than Trials and that type of timed event depends on riders getting though sections ASAP. Enduro? Agree about the Scot but the clue is in the name ''Time and Observation'' Disagree about the SSDT though yes you do loose time for being late, the same rules apply to the BTC and the WTC! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 For a year or two we had the ridiculous system where- a feet-up stop was a one one foot-down stop was a two two feet down stop was a three one dab was a one two dabs was a two three dabs was a three bounce sideways whilst moving was a clean bounce sideways whilst stationary was a five go backwards feet up or down was a five Try explaining that mess to a 'first time' observer five minutes before the start of a trial! In all the time I rode under this system, I was never given a two for a stationary dab. No wonder the ACU decided to go back to either stopping allowed or full non stop. Only my opinion but I believe that all trials should be non stop, (although I prefer to ride stopping allowed) we would quickly learn to accept the fact that a stop is a five and would ride accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christophers Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 Oh dear how sad why do people think no stop is the way forward the youth of today who are the future of trials will be riding no stop then when they ride the British championships or European or world championships they will have to ride stop why do we deem to be different.In football they all play with a round ball maybe we should get a square one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrc1 Posted November 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 It should be the best decision the SE centre has made, however it's now down the the Clerk of the Course to define/refine what can be ridden non-stop. There will always be lenient observers and also those that observe to the letter of the law. All the rider has to do is make sure you keep moving, simple really! I heard a rumour the Brit Champs are going this way too..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gizza5 Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 British championships or European or world championships Who is to say these championships won't go back to 'No Stop' in the future? They have to do something because in my opinion they are not the best supported championships and that is not sustainable without complete collapse! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lebowski Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 It should be the best decision the SE centre has made, however it's now down the the Clerk of the Course to define/refine what can be ridden non-stop. There will always be lenient observers and also those that observe to the letter of the law. All the rider has to do is make sure you keep moving, simple really! I heard a rumour the Brit Champs are going this way too..... I've heard the same rumour.... With only six riders at some rounds of the British champs, something surely has to be done. Admittedly it could further enlarge the gap to the Worlds, but again doesn't something need to be done there? Mind you, trying to change the rules when the Spanish are so strong.....? Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatabeta Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 It should be the best decision the SE centre has made, however it's now down the the Clerk of the Course to define/refine what can be ridden non-stop. There will always be lenient observers and also those that observe to the letter of the law. All the rider has to do is make sure you keep moving, simple really! I heard a rumour the Brit Champs are going this way too..... Another great way to stop all the top British riders riding in the BTC and going overseas again. Absolute joke we should run trials the same way that the governing body, the FIM do : stop permitted. People wont stop riding trials because they are allowed to stop will they? People may well stop riding if they are given a 5 because they were deemed to have stopped 3,4,5,6,7 times per trial and clock up a huge tally of points. Going no stop will just lead to more and more arguments from riders claiming that they didn't stop and rowing with observers. This is turn will slow trials down, causing more queueing and ultimately lead to the observer deciding not to give up the valuable time or the rider deciding not to ride or both - where's the benefit there?? Leaving trials as 'stop permitted' eradicates ALL arguements. You dont have to stop but you can if you like WHY O WHY make it harder for observers?? I cannot see ANY logic, point or benefit to going 'no stop'. It confuses the observers, it p*sses of riders and causes more headaches than solutions for CoC Sometimes I am so baffled by the clowns that seem to run our sport at centre and club level and it's all because predominantly (not always, but mainly) it is ran by the older generation who look back to the fantasy days of 'proper trials on proper bikes' and possibly cannot trick ride a trials bike. Lets be honest those days WILL NOT come back, everything - bikes, riders, gear, technique - has moved forwards, so we are they intent on moving it backwards??? I can hear the arguements of 'well the younger riders should get more involved' and I bet you'd find most younger riders would if the didn't have long work and family commitments as priority number 1. I know for sure that if I could, I would but I simply cannot for another 10-15 years. All this does is complicate, confuse and put off riders, observers and officials. As someone wrote before 'in football they play with a round ball' they do, and they also adapt the rules to modernise the game and keep up with improvements to peoples fitness, technique and equipment. So why is UK trials intent on moving it all back 30 or 40 years?? Surely if you want to do this style of riding you ride pre-65 or twin shock events etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bilc0 Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 Surely if you want to do this style of riding you ride pre-65 or twin shock events etc. Your bang on mate. With this modern bike era cake and eat it comes to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevel Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 It seems that this subject generates more emotion than any other when it is raised. Both sides of the arguement can make a very resonable case for why they are right. If you can stop & hop and have aspirations to be british champion then 'stop' rules are for you; if you can't hop about and just want a reasonable days sport then maybe 'no-stop' is the answer. The bottom line is there is no middle ground so we will always have the 2 systems As a non rider I have no axe to grind,so the only suggestion I can make is to pick your events depending on your preference. I would say in repose to beatabeta that in the northern centres where I watch (and observe), the entries don't seem to suffer as a result of riding no-stop rules, there is rarely a shortage of observers, I don't see any significant queing, nor do I get any significant issues with riders contesting their scores. As long as the sections are marked out in a manner that allows them to be ridden no-stop then they don't have to take the level of marks he suggests and they can & do provide a suitable test of man & machine (whether it be a pre65 or modern bike) So as I said earlier, both scoring methods have their merits and adherents, and are here to stay so live and let live & ride what you prefer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatabeta Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 The main point I'm trying to make is - You can set the sections out for non stop - keep the non stop brigade happy - but why not allow people to stop if they want to??? Who loses out here? no one at all Surely you can lay a section/trial out with 'no stop' in mind but allow those that want to, to stop. Sorry but this seems so simple that its overlooked. And in response to the possible 'stopping and trick riding will benefit those that can and hinder those that cant' response 1: not if the section is laid out with no stop in mind and 2: not always the case, how many times have you seen people stop or trick ride and either lose points whilst hopping or lose all momentum & traction and end up dropping a 5 or multiple dabs/pushing theyre way out ?? Also, the best riders will just adapt their riding whilst pushing and pushing the rules (and the observers) until they're doing 'stop allowed' again - we've seen it all before and I'll bet you we see it again. You'll also see the best (or the local) riders getting away with a stop and the lesser riders getting penalised for a stop. Again, who loses out here if it's a 'stop allowed' trial? no one at all. Those that will lose out would be decent low/mid range Inter/Expert riders and about 90% of up and coming youth riders. Think a lot also depends on terrain and venue - in the north (and I assume the S.E centre) you will always have terrain/venues more suited to flowing 'no stop' trials. Where I ride, mainly in Midland and South Midland Centres you'd struggle to get anywhere near as many venues where you can lay out that sort of trial. Sorry to rant on but I really struggle to see why people want trials to be 'no stop' unless I'm correct in my previous statement that it is predominantly the older generation harking for the days of old. If you can give people a trial set with no stop in mind but giving riders the option to stop if they wish, do it... Going sideways whilst stationary and backwards would still be a 5 so no one gains or loses out IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 I can see both sides and my favourite trials are no stop. But can someone explain why at btc and wtc this would increase entries? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyl Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 Dabster - I think the thought is no stop would reduce severity or at least remove some of the do or die stuff which is only possible when an inch perfect line can be achieved. However your probably right in thinking that it ain't going to magically generate any more top quality riders or provide significant more sponsorship money to allow riders to travel round the country or world. If Bou and co rode no stop they would still be in a class of their own. Likewise in Britain James/Michael and co would still be able to master sections we lesser mortals could only dream of. It does though appear to work at S3 level etc where tough sections can be ridden by club-men yet take marks off the top boys. I guess time will tell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ishy Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 When the worlds best riders ride event's like the SSDT and Scott, have you ever noticed how well they do? mebbe the young kid's with dreams of top level riding would better served riding no stop or get a reet job and ride trials just for fun like it was intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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