S.E. Centre goes no-stop

[jonnybmac]

Hoppings a skill though? I find it intresting to watch them line themselves up perfectly for a big step. Imagine using the no stop rules not allowing people to set themselves up properly on a big step that could cause injury if they hit it wrong? The whole intrest in trials in doing the unachievable amd making impossible possible. Saying trick is boring and it should be more fluent would seriously tone down the sections and in my opinion make it a tad boring.

Imagine being on top of a huge rock and not being able to take your time to come off it properly for the pressure of being penanised a no stop.. I just get the impression its due to the fact some cant do the hopping and such some of the younger lads can and are abit annoyed they cant score well. Well its a competative sport and if you cant do what others can then dont expect to score high.

I still believe a set time limit would favour more to push riders along to clear sections if all its about is people slowing queues by hopping?

Its like saying you cant dribble in a football match and you just have to get on with it and pass

[wri5hty]

Jonny some trials have time limits on them now and it wont rush you through a section, you take less time looking at the section or get more of a wiggle on inbetween section. the better the rider the faster they go on the course.

It's not possible to set time limits on sections at club level, as you struggle to get enough people to observe sometimes let alone get a timekeeper for each section aswell. if its a punch card trial thats worse still 1 observer + 1 puncher + 1 timekeeper on every section, you just wont get them.

Edited November 11, 2011 by wri5hty

[taff_d]

I'm sorry but are you aware how many Riders you need for a Trial. Say goodbye to the younger element and you can say "Cheerio" to your club!! You may think Clubs are rich beyond avarice, but organise a trial with 30 - 40 riders and you break even, less and the club haemorrhages cash at an alarming rate. It all depends on the cost of land and officials but the majority of clubs live hand to mouth.

Both Richmond and Darlington run non stop and they have no problem filling the entry and they are by far the best trial I have ridden, in my center they allow the stop and 1 club in particular have lost the plot if you can't bounce it about you WILL have a s*&t day

[baldilocks]

Hoppings a skill though? I find it intresting to watch them line themselves up perfectly for a big step. Imagine using the no stop rules not allowing people to set themselves up properly on a big step that could cause injury if they hit it wrong? The whole intrest in trials in doing the unachievable amd making impossible possible. Saying trick is boring and it should be more fluent would seriously tone down the sections and in my opinion make it a tad boring.

Imagine being on top of a huge rock and not being able to take your time to come off it properly for the pressure of being penanised a no stop.. I just get the impression its due to the fact some cant do the hopping and such some of the younger lads can and are abit annoyed they cant score well. Well its a competative sport and if you cant do what others can then dont expect to score high.

I still believe a set time limit would favour more to push riders along to clear sections if all its about is people slowing queues by hopping?

Its like saying you cant dribble in a football match and you just have to get on with it and pass

what stands out from this post to me is the obsession in trials especially with younger riders and their parents with steps and generally big obstacles. The steps obsession comes from the WTC which younger riders understandably wish to emulate. The justification for stop permitted seems to be you wont be able to set up for a step or drop. Now try and think about this from the perspective of how to maintain sufficient people on the hard course at any given event from club trial to WTC.

What you actually need are sections that all entrants can attempt but are difficult for the top guys to clean thus allowing more people to compete. The ideal section therefore in this scenario is not a six / eight / ten foot tall step which the top lads go up easily and every body else either fives or doesnt attempt. The ideal obstacle is not a six foot drop either which riders either clean or five by going over the bars.

If we want trials to succeed we need to stop emulating trials with poor entries and start looking at what works. By this I mean clerks of the course need to stop relying on big objects to to take marks, its not the only way.

[pete_scorpa3]

what stands out from this post to me is the obsession in trials especially with younger riders and their parents with steps and generally big obstacles. The steps obsession comes from the WTC which younger riders understandably wish to emulate. The justification for stop permitted seems to be you wont be able to set up for a step or drop. Now try and think about this from the perspective of how to maintain sufficient people on the hard course at any given event from club trial to WTC.

What you actually need are sections that all entrants can attempt but are difficult for the top guys to clean thus allowing more people to compete. The ideal section therefore in this scenario is not a six / eight / ten foot tall step which the top lads go up easily and every body else either fives or doesnt attempt. The ideal obstacle is not a six foot drop either which riders either clean or five by going over the bars.

If we want trials to succeed we need to stop emulating trials with poor entries and start looking at what works. By this I mean clerks of the course need to stop relying on big objects to to take marks, its not the only way.

Nothing to do with TSR22A or TSR22B but even at our humble club trials there are normally around 8 on the A route, 20 on the B route and 20 on the C route (with a handfull of conducted.)

Your average rider likes easy trials.

[old trials fanatic]

what stands out from this post to me is the obsession in trials especially with younger riders and their parents with steps and generally big obstacles. The steps obsession comes from the WTC which younger riders understandably wish to emulate. The justification for stop permitted seems to be you wont be able to set up for a step or drop. Now try and think about this from the perspective of how to maintain sufficient people on the hard course at any given event from club trial to WTC.

What you actually need are sections that all entrants can attempt but are difficult for the top guys to clean thus allowing more people to compete. The ideal section therefore in this scenario is not a six / eight / ten foot tall step which the top lads go up easily and every body else either fives or doesnt attempt. The ideal obstacle is not a six foot drop either which riders either clean or five by going over the bars.

If we want trials to succeed we need to stop emulating trials with poor entries and start looking at what works. By this I mean clerks of the course need to stop relying on big objects to to take marks, its not the only way.

at long last the voice of reason

[jonnybmac]

what stands out from this post to me is the obsession in trials especially with younger riders and their parents with steps and generally big obstacles. The steps obsession comes from the WTC which younger riders understandably wish to emulate. The justification for stop permitted seems to be you wont be able to set up for a step or drop. Now try and think about this from the perspective of how to maintain sufficient people on the hard course at any given event from club trial to WTC.

What you actually need are sections that all entrants can attempt but are difficult for the top guys to clean thus allowing more people to compete. The ideal section therefore in this scenario is not a six / eight / ten foot tall step which the top lads go up easily and every body else either fives or doesnt attempt. The ideal obstacle is not a six foot drop either which riders either clean or five by going over the bars.

If we want trials to succeed we need to stop emulating trials with poor entries and start looking at what works. By this I mean clerks of the course need to stop relying on big objects to to take marks, its not the only way.

But hard is meant to be hard? you cannot expect to ride in the hard section if yournot able to achieve alot of the skills required? hard to be should always be all or nothing meaning the risk of taking 5's for not doing it right.. what your talking about to me would be an inter course, where theres risk of dabbing and loosing points but no great risk of a 5. usually you get sections split up so the hard would be a 6ft vert and the inter you could go around in say a 3 ft one. you cant expect to ride hard is you dont have the skills to bring to it. its unfair to want hard tamed down as you sy so the mass can ride it when theres other classes you can ride in i dont understand your logic or am i missing something here? hard should have a minority in it that excell above the rest and require that challenge.

Of course people want to be like the WTC hopping over huge rocks, its where the sport has moved towards and it makes it intresting. what other ways can you impliment that could possibly cause marks scored?

The balance on some of the riders these days looks as if they have both feet on the ground in terms of what they can do on a bike, but its not exactly easy to achieve and if they can hop about then why take that skill they've spent a long time learning away from them?

No offence and im not trying to argue here, but it just seems your asking for a more fairer comp at because you dont have the ability(neither do i) that some of the other people do.

Trick is the future of where trials is going... with new machines and new riders being trained on better machines from an early age stuff like balance just come as second nature and people always try to make new things. you didnt need no stop whe they invented trials years ago on scooters and the older machienes because you couldnt exactly hop on the back wheel up a huge vertical wall.

tims change and so should the rules to cater for the machines and riders. yes its not fair on the older gen who have long gone past this stange, hey im 24 and its embarresing for me watchig 14-16 year olds shoot up walls when im falling off of little steps but you wouldnt expect alex ferguson to be able to play up front against a team like he used to, like in any sport the new will always rival the old and you cant begrudge that and say its unfair theres a huge margin between.

Its like saying you cant do a double back flip in fmx because thats not what people did 10 years ago.

[ishy]

Trick is the future of where trials is going

And trials is going the same way as Greece, Italy and Spain, down the Gary Glitter.

The sooner trials at world level fails the better if you ask me.

[pete_scorpa3]

But hard is meant to be hard? you cannot expect to ride in the hard section if yournot able to achieve alot of the skills required? hard to be should always be all or nothing meaning the risk of taking 5's for not doing it right.. what your talking about to me would be an inter course, where theres risk of dabbing and loosing points but no great risk of a 5. usually you get sections split up so the hard would be a 6ft vert and the inter you could go around in say a 3 ft one. you cant expect to ride hard is you dont have the skills to bring to it. its unfair to want hard tamed down as you sy so the mass can ride it when theres other classes you can ride in i dont understand your logic or am i missing something here? hard should have a minority in it that excell above the rest and require that challenge.

Of course people want to be like the WTC hopping over huge rocks, its where the sport has moved towards and it makes it intresting. what other ways can you impliment that could possibly cause marks scored?

The balance on some of the riders these days looks as if they have both feet on the ground in terms of what they can do on a bike, but its not exactly easy to achieve and if they can hop about then why take that skill they've spent a long time learning away from them?

No offence and im not trying to argue here, but it just seems your asking for a more fairer comp at because you dont have the ability(neither do i) that some of the other people do.

Trick is the future of where trials is going... with new machines and new riders being trained on better machines from an early age stuff like balance just come as second nature and people always try to make new things. you didnt need no stop whe they invented trials years ago on scooters and the older machienes because you couldnt exactly hop on the back wheel up a huge vertical wall.

tims change and so should the rules to cater for the machines and riders. yes its not fair on the older gen who have long gone past this stange, hey im 24 and its embarresing for me watchig 14-16 year olds shoot up walls when im falling off of little steps but you wouldnt expect alex ferguson to be able to play up front against a team like he used to, like in any sport the new will always rival the old and you cant begrudge that and say its unfair theres a huge margin between.

Its like saying you cant do a double back flip in fmx because thats not what people did 10 years ago.

I agree that hard should mean hard but we do have to cater for the majority otherwise our events will become unviable to run.

[old trials fanatic]

And trials is going the same way as Greece, Italy and Spain, down the Gary Glitter.

The sooner trials at world level fails the better if you ask me.

but unfortunately theres no fund to bail trials out.

[baldilocks]

Jonnybmac your missing the point.

nothing wrong with hard trials at all but they dont need to be dangerous.

In a recent NE centre trial of 3 laps 10 sections we had 5 people on the hard course. the winner lost 12 marks, a good ride if you have seen the sections, the 5th place guy lost 80 and the observing was rather slack so it could of been more, the NE is no stop. I'm not trying to get at the observers or the club here but the sections were not no stop because they had some big stuff which required set up to attack and the observers took this into account. People were minding for each other in this event, I may be old but minders in a club trial, why ?

In contrast in some other recent trials I have assisted in marking out the guy who won the trial above has lost over 40 marks. No minders, no hopping just a focus on natural sections which in some cases were made deliberatly longer. The result is a capable middle course rider could have enjoyed themselves on the hard course, our expert, and being fair to the lad he is an expert, a genuine good rider, lost 40+.

Now explain to me, your right i'm an old git, whats wrong with this approach ?

Its how trials were when I started and its where, in my view, they need to go back to. Look at that superstars video from the 70's, Mart won losing a lot of marks but most people could attempt all of the sections. Compare that with the top class of the WTC now or even worse the top of the BTC, its just not working. Six people competing most of them losing around 100 marks and your telling us we need to look at this as the future ? If the hard section is a step you either get up or you dont. That does not mean its the only skill to test.

Edited November 12, 2011 by Baldilocks

[perce]

Now explain to me, your right i'm an old git, whats wrong with this approach ?

& your dressing like this will continue to effect entries in Trials.

[telecat]

I observe in the Yorkshire centre. I have seen plenty of "different" C of C attempts at making a Trial. It's not difficult to make an easy trial. It also not difficult to make a hard trial. The "top" lads of which I include my Son who hates "easy" Trials want a Trial where 20 to 40 marks dropped is the norm. Try that with the "Clubmans" course and they stay away. I have been to Richmond Trials and the sections for the harder course are not always "no-stop". In Fact many times you cannot do a section without Hopping. Yes they get a lot of entries in club trials but that is down to location. Many of those Riders don't "come down" to the central and southern part of the area. As for Centre Trials I don't see any more riders at Richmond as any others. Again the Riders who "do" the centre's tend to go to all of them, however, Yet Again with regard to Club and Centre Trials you get an entry dependent on the clubs reputation but mainly on dates. If nothing else is on you get a big entry. The reputation of the SSDT and Scott also get a "good" entry. In Many cases some riders are entered because the dealers want their riders there.

In the case of the rules I can think that some riders will AVOID TSR22A and some TSR22B. In all cases if you set the Trial out right for the rules you run No problem. BUT do let the observers know. I have run at Trials with 22A where an observer insists that 22B should be applied. In one notorious case A section had to be pulled at a Centre where the Observer insisted the rules were 22B where the club had always been 22A.

The Problem is not always the rules. It's the riders who insist they are better than they are. Sorry but many riders who think they are great merely never come to a "hard" Trial or meet "good" riders. They then moan about how they would have won under the other "rules". The "good" riders are there already on merit. To beat them you get out and run with them and hopefully improve. If you can't enjoy the day out and ride as well as you can!!

Edited November 13, 2011 by Telecat

[roester]

I think it is a great shame that trials in the UK has had a number of significantly different sets of rules over the years, because I believe it has led to confused observers and frustrated riders who are marked inconsistently.

It is no good for an observer to claim "I always mark everyone the same" as if that justifies him using the wrong rules and giving everyone that stops a five, whilst the next observer gives a clean! It would be just as crazy to have the referee and the linesmen officiating football to their own differing sets of rules - the players wouldn't know where they are!

On behalf of the Berko club, I've run Trials Observer Training mornings for a number of years. Normally well attended, the main thing I notice is that there is huge confusion over the rules - some think a stop is a five, others a one, a clean or even a two or three! If most major sports can agree on internationally accepted rules and stick to them, then surely the small sport of trials should be able to, with some strong leadership from the governing bodies (?!).

The main reason I think the SE Centre were right to go non-stop by the way, is that, despite the fact that they run some great trials, it gets enormously boring sitting in queues for hours whilst 10 or 15 riders bounce around in the sections for ages in that centre. Obviously at centre level time-keepers are not normally an option when it is not easy to even find enough observers.

[trialsnutterman]

Imagine being on top of a huge rock and not being able to take your time to come off it properly for the pressure of being penanised a no stop.

I still believe a set time limit would favour more to push riders along to clear sections if all its about is people slowing queues by hopping?

Imagine been at the top of that huge rock knowing you've only got a few seconds left on your time limit, that's even worse! I did a British champs that had a horrible rocky steep downhill ending, having to go flat out down that cause I was running out of time was not nice.