S.E. Centre goes no-stop

[nigel dabster]

Dabster I meant this year. Fort William was a strange event because the sections were taking marks because they were so long and the riders had to rush which meant that they had to take strategic dabs or 3's as they did on 1 section. I think you will find that Carlisle doesn't have many natural sections and they have been placed there with a digger! World rounds are a dying sport and there is always going to be the discussion about the rules. Michaud wants France to go no stop and why not. It doesnt need massive steps to take marks. I had a discussion with Cabes when we were in Spain and he says that with no stop the sections needed to be bigger, I don't agree as when he rode the ssdt in 2010 he had a 3 up pipers burn and straight after an over 40 clubman cleaned it no problem! This is how non stop works. It's not all about 10ft steps because the top riders don't lose marks on the big steps, it's the bits inbetween that take the marks. We have indoor trials as the showcase which is great but that doesn't get people buying bikes! Joe public wants to go and watch a WTC or BTC and think its very hard but they could have a go at a similar version of the course. They don't want to go and watch all the hopping 10ft up in the air and go home thinking "I can't do that", this is the problem.

Lets face it whatever bou cabes and raga can do stop or no stop we can't even cotemplate so its a non argument that a change in rules would make a mortal think anything other than "thats amazing but I couldnt do that" just the same as messi swerving the ball into the top corner. but the little lad will go and try to emulate and get better and wwant to be out on his bike or kicking a ball.

Any top eponant will do what most of us thaink as very difficult, its what I thought when I saw the reults of my first centre trial back in the seventies, there was a gap then and it didnt put me off.

[ishy]

Over the last twenty years trials has got bigger and more spectacular in the section department, while manipulated the scoring rules many times to try and accommodate the section style, all in an effort to give them more chance of not failing the section, adding minders, mobile pit crew and every other thing they can think of to make it more appealing.

Has it worked.

Do more spectators attend.

Do more riders participate.

If any other sport, business, government had the same track record for the past twenty years, would you still keep going in the same direction.

[b40rt]

Can't think of many / any sport that has made such a fundamental change to its basic rule, ie stopping is a failure.

[nigel dabster]

The fact remains and I am only putting an alternative view, with no conviction, that the wtc would have moved on anyway and even if it had stayed no stop for the last 20 years whose to say we wouldnt still only have 10 competing cos its not viable for the rest?

Its stop allowed now which is the preference for the french riders but we have lost a few who still ride a bit.

Gibert and blazusiak have both moved on to enduro and away from trials why?

Anyone who thinks no stop at btc or wtc level has some serious arguments to find as Ive never seen one which would increase numbers of riders at this level.

But that isn't to say that no stop would have advantges, just cant see where the extra riders will come from.

Fundamentally rather than this set of rules or that set we need discuss how to get more to take up the sport.

[nigel dabster]

Can't think of many / any sport that has made such a fundamental change to its basic rule, ie stopping is a failure.

Football number of substitutes, ditto rugby. Change of offside rule in footy. Golden goal.

video replays in rugby and cricket. F1 changes its fundamental rules every year!etc etc

[rosey]

Well hopefully the rules are changed to suit the vast majority.. e.g. those who turn up all over the country to enjoy the weekend. Forgetting World Trials Circus, I'd still be interested to know how many ACU licence holders there are now and how many there were say in 1981. Can anybody answer this?

[ishy]

Fact is! even if everyone agreed that major change is needed, no bugger has a clue what to change.

I would think the most important group to keep interested is the over 40 brigade, they are the ones buying the new machines either for themselves or their kids.

[pete_scorpa3]

Fact is! even if everyone agreed that major change is needed, no bugger has a clue what to change.

I would think the most important group to keep interested is the over 40 brigade, they are the ones buying the new machines either for themselves or their kids.

WTC, BTC and many club trials are stopping allowed.

S3, Miller Series, Normandale, Trail Bikes, all classic trials and some club trials are non stop.

WI think we should have just one set of rules but we have two sets of rules because it would really upset a lot of people changing to one.

[tricky dicky]

I personally think if the BTC was no stop then it would get more entries but more to the point it would allow more entries. At present it's limited to 55 which is all due to the 90 seconds per section and after the stopwatch has been reset and card punched it is roughly an extra minute on top of that. I see the arguments both ways but for the majority no stop is beneficial and makes better riders. Trials is the only sport I know where it's impossible to complete the same course as the top men. In golf we could all attempt the masters course but most of us would know we would do a round in the hundreds but we could still attempt it. I know trials is a bit unique but we seem to have routes for everybody now which is another thing I don't completely agree with. Fair enough the hard, middle and easy routes but I've seen trials with 5 routes which is a bit unnecessary. The world championship is like the titanic, it's hit the iceberg and is sinking. They have a problem which doesn't allow any progression because the kids are stuck on 125's till they are 18 whereas when Raga and Bou etc came through the ranks they could ride 250's. This holds riders back and it's like learning again when they jump on a 300 from a 125. I think stuff what they do at the WTC and let's make it better for riders in the UK as it is a participant sport after all.

[danbeaven]

I personally think if the BTC was no stop then it would get more entries but more to the point it would allow more entries. At present it's limited to 55 which is all due to the 90 seconds per section and after the stopwatch has been reset and card punched it is roughly an extra minute on top of that. I see the arguments both ways but for the majority no stop is beneficial and makes better riders. Trials is the only sport I know where it's impossible to complete the same course as the top men. In golf we could all attempt the masters course but most of us would know we would do a round in the hundreds but we could still attempt it. I know trials is a bit unique but we seem to have routes for everybody now which is another thing I don't completely agree with. Fair enough the hard, middle and easy routes but I've seen trials with 5 routes which is a bit unnecessary. The world championship is like the titanic, it's hit the iceberg and is sinking. They have a problem which doesn't allow any progression because the kids are stuck on 125's till they are 18 whereas when Raga and Bou etc came through the ranks they could ride 250's. This holds riders back and it's like learning again when they jump on a 300 from a 125. I think stuff what they do at the WTC and let's make it better for riders in the UK as it is a participant sport after all.

I agreed with everything you said up until you got onto the subject of 125's.

I think this is the one thing they have got right - restricting riders to 125s till they are 16/17/18. Learning how to get every ounce of power out of a 125 is a skill that will translate onto the bigger bikes - speaking from experience here, jumping on a big bike too soon gives false delusions of grandeur...the riders thinks they are riding better, but realistacally they are just benefitting from/relying on the extra ponies. Arguably our best riders at present all came from a background of riding 125s until they moved into adult ranks. This rule applies across all disciplines (MX/Enduro/Road) and yes there will always be the exception to the rule

[rosey]

I personally think if the BTC was no stop then it would get more entries but more to the point it would allow more entries. At present it's limited to 55 which is all due to the 90 seconds per section and after the stopwatch has been reset and card punched it is roughly an extra minute on top of that. I see the arguments both ways but for the majority no stop is beneficial and makes better riders. Trials is the only sport I know where it's impossible to complete the same course as the top men. In golf we could all attempt the masters course but most of us would know we would do a round in the hundreds but we could still attempt it. I know trials is a bit unique but we seem to have routes for everybody now which is another thing I don't completely agree with. Fair enough the hard, middle and easy routes but I've seen trials with 5 routes which is a bit unnecessary. The world championship is like the titanic, it's hit the iceberg and is sinking. They have a problem which doesn't allow any progression because the kids are stuck on 125's till they are 18 whereas when Raga and Bou etc came through the ranks they could ride 250's. This holds riders back and it's like learning again when they jump on a 300 from a 125. I think stuff what they do at the WTC and let's make it better for riders in the UK as it is a participant sport after all.

Trials is actually one of the few sports where you could enter the same competition ( although I wouldn't say compete with) as the top competitors.

Golf (which if you have to say it is a sport!) is very different requiring qualification etc. Oh and the Masters course... they wouldn't let normal people up the drive to the course, never mind on the course.

But trials is hard and demanding physically.... golf is just tricky like tiddlywinks.

The accessibility of Trials is one of its real plus points.

[tricky dicky]

I was speaking obviously hypothetically about golf! The trouble is with how trials is at present is that there is only the SSDT and the Scott where an average club rider could say they rode the same course as the top riders. The BTC of old used to attract well over 100 riders all riding the same course whereas now its a maximum of 55 of us hopping into a rut as fast as we can and parking in a cow s**t field in the middle of nowhere! The ACU don't see this is a problem but with the price of fuel as it is it won't be sustainable for much longer as it costs on average around

[danbeaven]

Try enduros .... at least double that cost for a BEC!

why I'm thinking of doing more trials next year...only trouble is, as they are at present, I don't actually enjoy riding a trial competition. Maybe No Stop might help?

[gasgasjamie]

After reading all the posts so far, and also from the general consensus at trials I've been at recently, to me the views seem very closely split between stop and non stop. It seems, without trying to stereotype, that the new riders to the sport, be it old or young, seem to generally like the rules they have inherited, whilst the riders who have been around a bit longer remember back to when stop was a one (or five).

There have also been arguments that it's because the new riders have learnt to hop and therefore have the advantage and want to keep it, but this is not always the case, with some experts preferring to ride in non stop trials, or move away to enduro or motocross.

To me, Dan Beaven (above) has hit the nail on the head. Trials is about enjoyment. Whilst I can hop to a fairly decent level, if not as good as others, I far prefer the flowing trials as hopping to line up for big steps can get a bit repetitive. I prefer a trial that uses all the terrain, mixing in mud, hill climbs etc, with the big steps and more technical going.

For this reason, I am happy that the South East Centre has chosen to go non stop, and will be riding in them next year. I was getting close to stopping riding altogether as this year has worn on, as the fun from the day was becoming less and less as good sections and good trials were not as enjoyable as they used to be because of too many tight turns.

However, I do understand the need to have these sort of sections in for the experts, as they do need to practice the skills they are going to use in the BTC, and therefore this is a bold decision that the centre has made.

[tricky dicky]

After reading all the posts so far, and also from the general consensus at trials I've been at recently, to me the views seem very closely split between stop and non stop. It seems, without trying to stereotype, that the new riders to the sport, be it old or young, seem to generally like the rules they have inherited, whilst the riders who have been around a bit longer remember back to when stop was a one (or five).

There have also been arguments that it's because the new riders have learnt to hop and therefore have the advantage and want to keep it, but this is not always the case, with some experts preferring to ride in non stop trials, or move away to enduro or motocross.

To me, Dan Beaven (above) has hit the nail on the head. Trials is about enjoyment. Whilst I can hop to a fairly decent level, if not as good as others, I far prefer the flowing trials as hopping to line up for big steps can get a bit repetitive. I prefer a trial that uses all the terrain, mixing in mud, hill climbs etc, with the big steps and more technical going.

For this reason, I am happy that the South East Centre has chosen to go non stop, and will be riding in them next year. I was getting close to stopping riding altogether as this year has worn on, as the fun from the day was becoming less and less as good sections and good trials were not as enjoyable as they used to be because of too many tight turns.

However, I do understand the need to have these sort of sections in for the experts, as they do need to practice the skills they are going to use in the BTC, and therefore this is a bold decision that the centre has made.

Well said!

You have hit the nail on the head with why people are all for the no stop argument. I always thought that the southern centres would never contemplate no stop but they have and I applaud this bold decision. There is a video on the world championship chat forum of a certain Bernie Schreiber doing a stunning pivot turn. This is what no stop can offer and just look at the response from the crowd! When the stop for a 1 rule was introduced in 1998 everybody had to learn how to do it and it took time. To me riders just want everything instantly without having to work for it nowadays and instead of learning the flowing riding style they are allegedly prepared to pack in which is a sad state of affairs.