pete_scorpa3 Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 Here's a multi route trial question to ponder, I was given a five recently for knocking out a marker. No problem with that, I smiled and accepted it graciously, we've all done it, that's trials. Had I been the observer I would definately done the same! However, thinking about it on the way home, I wonder 'if' it was the right descision? I was riding the yellow (middle) route and the white (easy) route came in from the side. The white and yellow markers were stuck in the ground touching each other with the white one on the 'outside' of the course. It was approaching a step and needed a dab which took out the white marker leaving the yellow untouched. Would you, like me, have given a five for knocking out a marker from a different route, or would you have awarded just the one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 If you're riding the yellow route the white marker has no relevance. In effect it 'isn't there' for yellow route riders. Same applies vice-versa. There is no penalty for touching, flattening or knocking over markers from another route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinshockdude Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 acu changed the rules this year,if you knock over ANY flag,even if you are not riding that route it is a 5 - nonsense i know but there you go !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telecat Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 ACU Only changed the rules. But the rule just states that if a flag has to be "re-plnted". However as it isn't "your" route and I wouldn't have 5-ived you. The resaoning I have is that even if the flags are planted together the track you take may bring you into contact with a flag on the other route. This particularly applies where the flag for one route is in the middle of another set of flags for a different route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 acu changed the rules this year,if you knock over ANY flag,even if you are not riding that route it is a 5 - nonsense i know but there you go !! I had no idea... Quite unworkable in some of the sections in our club trials where the whites are often right in the middle of the other routes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 Would the logic (of this rule) be to save the observer from having to stick the flag in over and over again? not only tiresome but time consuming. I have to say it would be a dab or whatever not a five in my book the serious competitor always gets to know his observers ...for good reason with all these rules to interpret /deal with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02-apr Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 (edited) A five - utterly absurd. It harks back to the day when some observers felt you had to take a straight line between sets of markers (there never was anything in the rules to suggest this). I fell foul of something similar a couple of years ago when my line between two sets of "my" cards took me through the "other route" cards. I was given a five as "your route is the red route, not the blue one". I didn't miss any of mine and the route (I was a bit out of control) was actually harder than the intended one. To contrast with that, I rode a two day this year where the easy and hard routes had different colour flags but some sections had every set of flags on the easy route in place (ie if you were supposed to use the hard route at that point there was a set of easy flags matching the hard ones). At other sections you were just supposed to know that you were meant to divert from the easy route and go through a set of "hard" flags at some points. Cost me two fives but I would still have thought it a poor do even if it hadn't. They can't have been that hard up for flags. And yes I have been and do get involved in laying out events so it's not just a moan from an unappreciative competitor. Edited November 19, 2011 by 2/4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 you didnt say if it was a trial run under ACU rules or not. If it was then it's a five if not then it depends on whatever the rules that the trial is run under states. ACU front spindle in front spindle out versus AMCA front spindle in rear spindle out rule is another one that riders and observers "choose" to interpret how they see fit. Either we follow the rules or we dont. Same thing as the ridiculous when is a stop a stop debate. in my experience it constantly exasperates me how few riders and observers ACTUALLY know the actual rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted November 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 you didnt say if it was a trial run under ACU rules or not. If it was then it's a five if not then it depends on whatever the rules that the trial is run under states. ACU front spindle in front spindle out versus AMCA front spindle in rear spindle out rule is another one that riders and observers "choose" to interpret how they see fit. Either we follow the rules or we dont. Same thing as the ridiculous when is a stop a stop debate. in my experience it constantly exasperates me how few riders and observers ACTUALLY know the actual rules. It was an ACU trial and as I wrote in my opening post, I would have given the five myself but it is one of those situations that makes you wonder if it was correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 I know is is different, yet similar thing that apparently the FIM and has adopted, the fact that even toutching a marker of any sort will get you a 5. Seems this rule has been adopted in the US as well. Personally, I think this a bit harsh, and not in the spirit of the sport that most of us ride. Have things really come to this? Fact is some trials are a bit poorly marked out, but such is life. Hard to hire free labor nowa! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted November 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 I know is is different, yet similar thing that apparently the FIM and has adopted, the fact that even toutching a marker of any sort will get you a 5. Seems this rule has been adopted in the US as well. Personally, I think this a bit harsh, and not in the spirit of the sport that most of us ride. Have things really come to this? Fact is some trials are a bit poorly marked out, but such is life. Hard to hire free labor nowa! In this case it was nothing to do with the marking, it was my big clumsy foot that casued me to knock the marker out. Marking out club trials has got harder in modern times. The Clerk of the course simply can't get away with one route. I mark out three route in our club trials (plus two on the conducted) and I find it impossible to do ths using diversions. So I mark each route from start to finish with it's own coloured arrows. Some gates have all three colours but it does make it easy to follow. But even with this system, I have riders telling me the jump between the A and the B or the B and the C is too big and what I should do is have a 50/50 route like 'such and such' club. I haven't done this so far as it means working out the results on seven (with the conducted) different routes! The club where my 'five' occured does provide SIX routes, all with their own championship, so there is no way I am going to critisise the observers descision. As I wrote easlier, I would have done the same. For every 'soft' mark you loose you get away with a 'good' one another time, that's trials. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02-apr Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Fair enough but I still see absolutely no logic in being penalised for a flag that is not on "your" route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyl Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 No critism on any party but I personally don't like having an alternative route marked in the middle of another route. I always try and have riders all going through the same gates or on a completly diferent set of gates but this does take time and effort and even a compromise on the section to do this. Only mark out trial a year and spend a few months doing! I guess this is just one of the many problems of multi routes. PS is the imaginary line between flags still in ACU handbook or has it also gone by the wayside Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svleigh Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Clark of course hat on - I believe all courses set by COC's and their helpers try where possible to place flags in a such a way as least likely to be knocked over, yanked out or flattened and still set a course that is testing to the riders level. But, no matter how careful the course plotting, flags will on occasion get dislodged and therefore riders should be marked a 5 for dislodging a flag or breaking a boundary tape. For the trials I have COC'd, the flags are set as wide as possible, and usually at least 1m apart and generally between 1-3m apart depending upon terrain. Riders Hat on - flags are always in the wrong place especially when you ride over one on and knock it over or flatten it. "It was already dislodged Mr/Mrs/Ms.Observer, it cant believe it has been my poor choice of line/bad riding!!!", LOL Observers Hat on - If the majority of riders get through the section with out touching or dislodging a flag then a rider doing so should be given a five. If a flag is constantly being dislodged and section is un-ridable for the level of competitor, once all riders have completed the section I may adjust the placing if possible. Then inform the riders returning to the section that it has changed slightly and go check their lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted November 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Riders Hat on - flags are always in the wrong place especially when you ride over one on and knock it over or flatten it. "It was already dislodged Mr/Mrs/Ms.Observer, it cant believe it has been my poor choice of line/bad riding!!!", LOL It was my fault the marker got knocked over and I didn't see anyone else knock it over and I only did it once on my third lap, so I certainly can't say it was in the wrong place. The marker I knocked over was from another route, and this was what prompted my original question. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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