tricky dicky Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 The big point you are missing is that there was only one route when Dougie, Jarvis, Colley etc were in the top flight of the WTC. It was exactly the same when Raga and Bou have come through the ranks to where they are now at the top of the sport. You may also find Raga learnt his trade when the rules were stop for a 1 so you are missing the point. It's not the rules holding back the progression of the next top British rider, it's the fact they are stuck in the Junior/ youth classes until they are the age Tarres, Dougie and Toni won their first world championships. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camberman Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 No stop is old and out dated. Modern machines now lend them self to hopping, hence the requirement to implement this into sections. Simply putting a turn into a no stop that demands a footing is proof it's flawed. Land is becoming more of an issue and venues often not that good so it's a case of making tight turns just to make It difficult. Twin shock should be no stop permitted, but to go back in time defeats progress of the sport. I am in agreement with this person's opinion. Please do not defeat the progress of the sport to accomodate those who are simply not up to the challenge of modern Moto Trials. Have a no stop class for those on twin shock machines and allow the bikes and riders to continue evolving into the future with the modern style of riding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camberman Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 (edited) How many times as everybody been stuck in a section que waiting to ride it while someone hops around in the section and takes ages! I for one often think to myself while waiting wish it was no stop! Even though i have never really rode non stop rules! That is the intended purpose of a time limit for each section. Edited November 25, 2011 by camberman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gizza5 Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 That is the intended purpose of a time limit for each section. Bloody hell its hard enough finding observers, now I gotta find time keepers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camberman Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 In Spain they have the Punters, they have TV coverage etc. There it works why should they change? Why wouldn't they resist the FIM trying to change the rules? Especially as it's only the ACU trying to do it? In the UK the problem is a lack of a rider capable of winning WTC. There was a BIG gap between Dougie, Graham, and Steve Colley to the current lads. It could be said that nobody was going to come though while these boys dominated the sport in the UK. But it has hurt the Sport here as Doug and Graham have moved to Enduro's and Steve just does shows. Could that be blamed on No Stop? There's an argument it could be. That lack of a really high profile rider with no disrespect to Dibs, Jack etc is probably what's hurting UK Trials at the moment. There is nobody who can get on TV barring Dougie because as far as the TV exec's are concerned they don't have the credibility. They are starting to bridge the gap and with Browny, Wigg and Shepard a new dynasty could emerge as Spain's Golden generation Wane. Just Behind them are lads like Jack Price and Joe Faunthorpe brought up on Stop Trials at National level. If we change to No Stop we risk another big gap in WTC capable riders by going back to rules designed for twin shocks and drum brakes. Yes it gets the enthusiast interested but not the "Punters" who want to watch. However look at Bicycle Trials, Danny Macaskill is feted on TV due to how he can throw a Trials Bicycle around. He could be on a Trials Motorcycle. However would he be interested in No-Stop? Pretty unlikely even if the Money was there and lets face it He doesn't need to move now. Many of his contemporaries don't want to move either. In Spain a lot do and we have missed out on them. No-Stop certainly discourages them because that's what they do! And they are growing in number. We've seen Jack start to do the sort of Video Danny does to get the sport moving. That excites Punters. We do have riders coming in. Those who find road and MX/Enduros just too damaging. Youngsters on the OSET's. That's the future and we can cater for all. Set Beginners and Club course out so they can be ridden No-Stop. The Main and Championship courses as Stop and you make everybody happy and you get a progression for the riders who want and need it. This makes a lot of good sense to me ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 Bloody hell its hard enough finding observers, now I gotta find time keepers? no a simple system of timing could be devised, this is 2011 clocks and timing are simple devices and with thought could be easy to use, easier than punchcards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gizza5 Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 no a simple system of timing could be devised, this is 2011 clocks and timing are simple devices and with thought could be easy to use, easier than punchcards. Your kidding right? Are you suggesting the 10 observers are the time keepers too, bet the volunteers will be queueing up to grab a board Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camberman Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 Bloody hell its hard enough finding observers, now I gotta find time keepers? I guess that might be a bit of a complication for a local or club event. We have assigned timekeepers at our nationals here , but not at the club level events. It could be accomplished with 2 observers per section, but that could be tough to arrange at a small event. I would just be very dissapointed to see the sport regress into the past rather than progress into the future. I would not be against a no-stop line for modern bikes as well as twin shockers, just please leave room at the top for the best riders and their machines to excel with the stop allowed format ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 Check out the ACU web site for a SHOCK announcement. Well done to all those who saw that coming! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldilocks Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 tricky dicky has sent me the lottery numbers for tonight whoo hoo ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 I guess that might be a bit of a complication for a local or club event. We have assigned timekeepers at our nationals here , but not at the club level events. It could be accomplished with 2 observers per section, but that could be tough to arrange at a small event. I would just be very dissapointed to see the sport regress into the past rather than progress into the future. I would not be against a no-stop line for modern bikes as well as twin shockers, just please leave room at the top for the best riders and their machines to excel with the stop allowed format ! Do you honestly see what is happening now as progression? Diminishing entries in WTC, diminishing entries in BTC - reason: sections too hard for all but 5 or 6 riders. Most UK dual route nationals have a split of expert / clubman of something like 15% / 85% - reason: most find the expert sections way beyond their ability. Our centre championship rounds have expert / clubman split of 20% / 80% As you'd expect, the expert entries consist of mainly younger riders and some middle aged riders who can still perform. The clubman route consists of novices young and old, older riders who will never improve and riders with good ability but just below what is required to tackle the expert sections. It has been like this for many years now - so where are all the younger riders coming from to fill the expert entries and progress to BTC and then WTC level? It isn't happening and hasn't been for some time. Answer - there aren't anywhere near enough who have the skill level to do so. The sport at the top level is out of reach of 80% of riders. Do that 80% care? No. They enjoy what they do. Do they care if we don't have a system to 'groom' future WTC contenders? No, it makes no difference to their weekly enjoyment of the events they ride whether we have a champion or not. If the sport continues along its current path it will be dead in not so many years at championship level. If the governing bodies want to resurrect these flagging championships then something needs to be done. There is little else left that they can try now other than to give no stop another proper try. I remember when the SSDT went no stop and Lampkin, Hemmingways and others publicly criticised it and said they would never ride it. They missed the first couple of years but have been at it ever since... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b40rt Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 I would just be very dissapointed to see the sport regress into the past rather than progress into the future. How about "Regress to the Future" or was that a film with Marty McFly ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 As a (less than) average standard rider, I may take a momentary feet-up pause to regain balance, prepare for the next obstacle etc. I would feel aggrieved if this resulted in a five. Judging when a rider is 'stopped' is subjective and often varies between observers. So in and ideal world, I'd like to keep the stopping, but get rid of the stationary hopping. But, anyone who really believes that a change in rules is suddenly going to bring in a huge influx of new riders is living in La-La Land! And that is symptomatic of the thinking that doesn't understand the original concept of trials. When you are losing balance under no-stop you need a dab to get yourself sorted out and back on line, otherwise you either fall off or go out of the section unless it is very wide and you have room to recover whilst still feet up and going forwards. In other words you are penalised a mark or more for losing control of the bike, which is what you have done if only for a split second. Stopping to regain your balance takes away the necessity to plan your line and stick to it to attain a feet up ride. Under stop allowed, you're failing as you stop to regain balance you have lost - the difference is the rules allow you to fail unpenalised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdeane01 Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 2 reasons why trials is attracting less riders. simple! Cost of bikes and land to practise on. Her in Australia we have the stop rule and use the 90 second rule. Those in the top grades do stop as the sections require it, there is no stuffin around as after 90seconds they get a five, observers have a stop watch. Those not at the top level who ride the easier sections often dont stop, finish in under a minute. To make it easier for observers with the going back rule that is easy. You CAN go back, if you foot when going back a one, twice a two, make the footing rule the same for when moving forward and back. that way it is easier for observers. No people wont take longer, well not more than 90 seconds as they get a 5! Just my ideas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldilocks Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 (edited) Totally agree Woody I see little point in a super hard championship route at BTC which is supposed to be grooming riders for a WTC thats dead on its feet. I am tired of the arguement that its ok because the youth class at WTC or Expert B prop up the entry numbers. Its not ok that nobody has broken into the top 5 for how long and that generally new riders cant make the grade on the champ route. No disrespect to any of them but if they are losing more than 100 marks in 30 sections they arent really going to win anytime soon, thats more than 3 marks per section for those of you who failed GCSE maths . Good on the ACU for trying somthing, if it doesnt work the rest of us can still ride every sunday in our own events. If the WTC dies in current form does it really matter to me or you ? Edited November 25, 2011 by Baldilocks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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