gasgasjamie Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 'The dying BTC' ??? Yes it was so dying that riders couldn't get into some rounds as they were oversubscribed. To me to say it was dying is an over-exaggeration as considering the expense it takes to go to these rounds, to have them full to what the ACU wanted means that the riders were supporting it. To me, the BTC needed tweaking, not completely overhauled. As the riders were keen, the problem area is with the lack of crowds and enthusiasm for the events by the rest of the trials community. Surely the ACU could have looked at this first before deciding to upset a large number of the riders competing in these trials. Perhaps better marketing at the local trials in the weeks leading up to a BTC event, perhaps reaching an agreement with the local clubs to change their dates so local riders could go and watch without loosing out on their own championship points and a days ride. Perhaps turning into a full weekend with two days of BTC, as they do with some WTC rounds. This would mean that less weekends would be needed overall for the championship and therefore less travelling in these tight times. They would not need to be at the same venue, but just somewhere nearby. This would make it better value for money for the spectator and could encourage a lot more friends and family to travel with the riders to the further rounds as they could make a 'weekend of it'. Or if this wasn't liked, get the youth championship to the venue on the Saturday and leave the BTC for the Sunday to make it more of a social weekend where the youth get to do what they love (ride), but also see their heroes in action the very next day. And finally, too boost the top route, perhaps try not making the whole trial so hard. Have a third of it to sort out the winner, but then also have sections that the Expert A riders can do. Riders often know their level but understand the needs the better lads and don't mind taking the odd five here and there, if the rest of the trial is doable. The Expert B class seemed to be working fine to me with a good range of riders loosing a good range of marks. Just my thoughts. ----------------- Now back to the non-stop rules. For me personally, I would love trials to go full non-stop, or stop for a one, as it would lead to more flowing sections and trials being decided by who rode the best over the obstacles, not who was the best at setting themselves up for them. However, recent history shows that these changes are going to struggle to work. When we last went to non-stop (stop for a one), it actually worked at the start. Riders tried not to stop, and the observing was as consistent as it ever will be. Then the WTC changed it rules. This meant that we were now riding differently to rest of the world and what we went to watch, saw on TV or DVD and marvelled at on YouTube. From that day, observing started to become very varied, especially as club level. Some would keep to the rules and of course rightly so, but others would have the mindset that 'well the World lads are doing it, so I guess you can too' and 'we will soon change to join them so you might as well get practising now'. Can you blame them though, as all the younger riders wanted to do was emulate the best and the observers (usually parents, friends, girlfriends) tended to agree with them. Therefore, until the WTC changes, there will always be far too much confusion at the club level when non-stop rules are applied. These are the grass-root events of trials and the area we need to get sorted in order to boost participation in the sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tricky dicky Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 The stop for a 1 rule ran in WTC from 1998 to 2003 inclusive and was good. Far better than it is now and with higher entries and more rideable sections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 The stop for a 1 rule ran in WTC from 1998 to 2003 inclusive and was good. Far better than it is now and with higher entries and more rideable sections. Really showing my ignorance now but did you get a 1 for every time you stopped? Serious question because i dont know. It was applied whilst i was taking a break from trials doing other things. Was there a limit on the number of times you could get a 1 in a section because if you are hopping then it would be easy to score 20 or more. Either way a lot of people seem to remember the 1 for a stop fondly so if no stop doesnt have the desired effect then it might be worth a try again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 The stop for a 1 rule ran in WTC from 1998 to 2003 inclusive and was good. Far better than it is now and with higher entries and more rideable sections. From an organisers point of view, the stop for a one rule was terribly difficult to explain to a new observer, especially one who has been volunteered five minutes before the start of a trial. Just imagine this conversation: "Thanks for offering to observe, all you need to remember is this. A dab is a one, a stop is a one, a stopped dab is a two, two dabs is a two, two dabs whilst stopped is a three, a three is a three, two stops and a dab is a three, one stop and two dabs is a three, three stops even if their feet are up is also a three! If they take their hand off the bars whilst stopped and dabbing it's a five, a stall whilst stopped is a one but a stall whilst stopped with a foot down is a five... got it?" I for one was really pleased to see the back of that lot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ishy Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 From an organisers point of view, the stop for a one rule was terribly difficult to explain to a new observer, especially one who has been volunteered five minutes before the start of a trial. Just imagine this conversation: "Thanks for offering to observe, all you need to remember is this. A dab is a one, a stop is a one, a stopped dab is a two, two dabs is a two, two dabs whilst stopped is a three, a three is a three, two stops and a dab is a three, one stop and two dabs is a three, three stops even if their feet are up is also a three! If they take their hand off the bars whilst stopped and dabbing it's a five, a stall whilst stopped is a one but a stall whilst stopped with a foot down is a five... got it?" I for one was really pleased to see the back of that lot! Does look a bit of a task trying to work that one out, mebe it should just be pass or fail, if you pass through the start and end gate you get a pass, if tha dun't it's a fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tricky dicky Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 It wasn't quite that complicated as if you moved the bike when you were stood still it was a five. There was obviously the limit that if you had 3 stops it was a 3 and after that you could stop or dab as much as you liked. It was brought in so that a stop was a dab instead of a five so for beginners they got a 1 for a pause instead of being fived. For me this is better than full no stop as its far easier to accept a one than a five. It worked well for a long time and there weren't many disputes at all. It made it far easier for any doubtful observers as they just awarded a one. I was given ones if I stopped and quite rightly so. If there was a big step or something that you maybe needed to psyche yourself up for then you could take the stop one instead of risking a five. It worked very well at wtc level aswell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosey Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 (edited) Stop for a 1 was pants ! OK.. I see your point, but there were all those other complications hand off bars ..dead engine etc. No-stop is simpler, but I prefer the stop, roll back etc. However, we've seen how long this takes and how fiddly the solutions are. Sad about BTC, but in the minds of the few I've spoken to its been dead for a while, not dying! I'm sure those who are competing in it don't see this and this is understandable! Still ACU's done it now so lets see how it goes. Edited December 5, 2011 by Rosey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasgasjamie Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 The stop for a one was not that complicated really. Stop = 1. Dab = 1. Count until a maximum of 3 and anything beyond is still a 3. Unless you fail the section, and failing the section was basically going sideways or backwards and everything that has and always will be a five (like hand off handlebar or stalled engine with a foot down). This to me is the best compromise there has been as it meant that the beginners could ride without being given a five on every section, the experts could have the big stuff in knowing that a stop and look wasn't the end of the section and everyone in between could still get a fighting 3 on a tough section. There was of course, still the possibility of a rider just stopping for a dab and sitting there all day, but it was far rarer than nowadays. It lasted for a while longer in the UK, with the BTC keeping with it after the WTC had changed, but sadly observing got so lax down south that a stop was hardly ever penalised. There were some exceptions to this and I remember riding the Chris Carter one year and getting fived twice (rightly) for hoping sideways and so in some areas stop for a one was still working well right up until the ACU scrapped it. The only main problem there was in the early days of this rules the riders just didn't know if they had stopped, which is a problem at a trial without observers. However this problem is just made worse by 5 for a stop, as riders are now even less likely to mark themselves down for a short stop if they are in doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bilc0 Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 (edited) Kickstart was'nt to blame for what we have now, the curiousity of what someone could do with a trial bike would have come sooner or later, the biggest mistake we made in the 80's was not drawing a line in the sand and saying this is how we ride arena trials and this is how we ride traditional trials, this never happened and this is why we have a problem today, hopefully the ACU/importers have at last reconised this fact and can successfully split the 2 and start working on separate economies that this will bring. Trials must be the only off road motorcycle sport that hasnt successfully been able to make 2 separate economies from arena and outdoor. Maybe back in the 80's we were too far ahead of our time and nobody saw we could of had 2x wealth. Edited December 6, 2011 by bilc0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwig Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 Gas gas Jamie and Woody should be on the T&E committee. They both have very good understanding of the current situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 From an organisers point of view, the stop for a one rule was terribly difficult to explain to a new observer, especially one who has been volunteered five minutes before the start of a trial. Just imagine this conversation: "Thanks for offering to observe, all you need to remember is this. A dab is a one, a stop is a one, a stopped dab is a two, two dabs is a two, two dabs whilst stopped is a three, a three is a three, two stops and a dab is a three, one stop and two dabs is a three, three stops even if their feet are up is also a three! If they take their hand off the bars whilst stopped and dabbing it's a five, a stall whilst stopped is a one but a stall whilst stopped with a foot down is a five... got it?" I for one was really pleased to see the back of that lot! Bloody hell!!! i'm glad i was off skiing when all that was introduced. Thanks for clarifying for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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