No Stop : not working

[old trials fanatic]

Two points in your post

First - 'leave the future alone'. Whilst I much prefer no-stop I wouldn't want to 'impose' that rule on anyone who didn't want it. However, under current stop and hop rules, new riders are hardly flowing in to club level trials at the moment are they? So no-stop surely isn't going to worsen this, should the majority of clubs choose to adopt it? (they have the choice, as has been pointed out many, many, and many times...)

'impress their mates with some trick riding' - This is the one aspect of trick riding I truly hated when it first appeared back in twinshock days. Trials was never a poser spport and was never about impressing your mates with the look what I can do stuff. But it is what it quickly became. Every trial, some riders couldn't wait to get the bike unloaded and then hop and bounce their way around the car park in a demo of 'look how clever I am'. In sections, where one or two hops would suffice to get round a turn, we were treated to 20 or 30 as riders hopped round, then back to where they atarted, then back again. It went on and on and on. Utterly tedious.

A typical club trial, the usual mix of a few (single figures) experts with many more clubmen, novices, over 40. The stream of riders flows quite nicely through sections until you get caught up behind a couple of expert riders who take forever to get through a section - balancing, hopping, rebalancing, revving, dropping the clutch in an explosion of revs, only to get stuck on the next obstacle. Then there's the usual rocking to and fro until they eventually get the bike free. They are now on 3 (5 in old money and time to p*** off out of the section) Now line up for the next obstacle, repeating previously mentioned balancing hopping revving. Attempt to move back wheeel once - works. Second attempt fails and foot goes down. Bike now stationary with foot down whilst rider hops the back wheel several times sideways to line up. Launches at next obstacle, gets stuck on roots, rocks bike back and forth to get free (has now incurred a 5 at leat 3 times but still on a 3) Next obstacle - repeat all of the previous maneuoveres one more time, apart from on this occassion the bike is rolled backwards at least 2' in the process of lining up. Eventually, rider finally exits section for a score of 3. Total joke, bears no resemblance to the true ethos or spirit of motorcycle trials whatsoever and utterly painful to be stuck in a queue whilst it goes on.

And all of it could have been achieved no-stop with 3 well placed dabs... which is exactly what a competent older rider who can't trick ride did. I know which ride was appreciated more by the riders waiting in the queue - for the more 'graceful' ride as well as the fraction of the time taken.

As well as considering whether no-stop will discourage people from taking part, what about the contrast? I know some riders who won't go to certain events because of the time taken sitting in queues waiting for the aforemntioned scenario to play out.

:agreed: :agreed:

God i so wish i'd said that. Woody for president

[al_orange]

I'm just going to add a different perspective to this discussion. I've been reading it with interest as I'm surprised at how much uproar has been caused by the change.

I'm a complete novice - I've a rusty old bike sitting in the grage and I'm yet to even enter a trial (I do enduro and wanted to do trials to really develop my riding).

Personally, I agree with most of the arguments FOR No-Stop but the only one I took exception to was Woody's one on "trick" riding. I can see the practicalities of running a trial with No-Stop (as Woody has clearly illustrated) but the skill/fitness/dedication it takes to develop that level of control for trick riding is not something to be thrown out with the bath water. Unfortunately, this does take time and opportunity to learn, so people will get it wrong.

From what I can see - there's two "roots" that keep trials alive - the older chaps that have the cash and want to give trials a go (like me!) or the young blood that start trials at an early age.

Unfortunately, they have quite conflicting objectives/requirements. In the short to medium term, No-Stop seems to be the answer for the older group and I think would help new riders get into the sport - once they've taken the plunge.

However - and this is the kicker as far as I'm concerned - When you see trials on the TV or Youtube - it's seeing Tony Bou hopping up ridiculous walls etc. that set's the blood alight and makes you want to get out there and learn those skills. In reality, of course only a tiny percentage get to that level but it gets people through the door. I'm sorry but even footage of the SSDT is bloody dull (if you don't know what you're looking at).

Therefore - LONG TERM, Trials will need the exciting/showcase riding to keep it in the public eye and alive. That's what new people see and think "Wow - that's so cool". UNLESS the industry excepts that it only really caters for over 30's. If it does that though, it's future is probably limited - like it or not, you need new blood whether it's old or young and Stop-Allowed LOOKS far better than no-stop.

I think it's been said a number of times before but BTC should really be Stop Allowed but clubs should run both, as they see fit.

I'm sure many people will disagree with me based on the fact that I really don't know what I'm talking about but that's the whole point to this post.

I've been heavily involved with the Martial Arts for many years - the one thing that becomes abundantly clear is that to preserve the real sport/art and keep passing it down, you need to bring in new blood - and that means silly demonstrations and lots of flashy moves that have little basis in reality but DO get the ignorant fired up.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Al_Orange

[b40rt]

I've been heavily involved with the Martial Arts for many years - the one thing that becomes abundantly clear is that to preserve the real sport/art and keep passing it down, you need to bring in new blood - and that means silly demonstrations and lots of flashy moves that have little basis in reality but DO get the ignorant fired up.

All fair points. But do the flashy moves you refer to, conflict utterly with the ethos of the sport ?

[rosey]

I had to laugh a good few years ago at a trials school I was doing..

I set a section out where I wanted the riders to put their front wheel on one rock and then place it onto another whilst going round a corner.. ... basically a pivot turn and then up a smallish step.

So I showed them... and the questions came back "We can just hop the back wheel and line up and go that is easier"..Oh and most of them could ride like this too (in the dry)!

BUT when they tried to do it the way I asked, the ones with real riding ability stood out...The other 'Frenzied Hoppers' were OK until we moved onto a slippery section. I asked the same andn they hopped and hopped and couldn't move due to lack of grip.

What am I saying?

Erm ?? Well I'm trying to say that JUST being able to hop on your drive or in the carpark (on a grippy surface) doesn't mean you can can ride. It helps you balance and have a better idea of control sure, but its not the magic key to being able to ride. Just look at the best riders and see how they only do it when necessary.

Regardless of the rules chosen in the trial, you will notice how the better riders move the bike less (or should I say less hastily). This means in general they are more in control. The hopping riding style does more to highlight riders inadequacies more than any other.

[grahamjayzee]

Interesting.

One point of note; there seems to be an assumption here that O/40 riders are all long term stalwarts of the sport. I had an interest as a kid and went with a friend a few times, but didn't start the sport until I could afford a bike in my mid-20s. I stopped for 13 years (family) and returned in my 40s. Since then, I have acquired 3 new riding buddies who had NEVER ridden a trials bike as a young'un. All between mid 30s and mid 40s.

One chap though, didn't last. For him, the expert route and all the hopping and bopping dominated his vision at trials and he was unable to see past this in order to get going and let the sport 'grab' him. Not sure it would have done anyway, but it's interesting to note that sometimes the very thing that can inspire some, can terrify others. He certainly felt that at his age, this was always going to be beyond him. I couldn't convince him that it didn't matter and that a sunday in a muddy field with a load of old blokes (and some young ones) was fine way to pass time...

And this is the point; not all o/40s are old riders; some are brand new! As such, they need to be eased in to the sport just the same as young'uns, but ultimately they may have lower aspirations. Sure, we need young blood, but we need ALL blood.

Regarding the minimal entry at the top level; I can't see why this matters. At some club trials we have 3 experts. It's a mark of our sport that we can include these talented riders in the same event as the likes of me. If this is the same at BTC, does it really matter? If you have 50+ on another route, your work is done! Maybe some will elevate from the feeder classes over time. If we cannot feed the 'talent pyramid', we'll never have guys on Eurosport we can proudly cheer on.

[al_orange]

All fair points. But do the flashy moves you refer to, conflict utterly with the ethos of the sport ?

Unfortunately - yes. In my opinion. Of course, the ethos of any sport is open to interpretation. Who is it that has the authority to define it for Trials? Can it be defined? Amazing how having a single rule (stop/no stop) changed can utterly change the skillset and approach needed for a sport.

Every sport has rules (by definition). The instant you apply rules, you open up the opportunity to find the "best" way around those rules to give you competitive advantage. Those that have the skills training in one rule set NEVER want the rules changed. With sports, rules are always changed to increase the participation/tv coverage/revenue of the sport.

No sport is about being the "best" it's about being the "best, given the constraints of the rules."

[woody]

There is also the misconception in these 'stop / no stop' discussions that over 40 riders are the one's calling for the change as it is they who can't perform the tricks (or in the case of some pillocks' opinions 'refuse' to learn the tricks or 'progress with the sport') Fact to note here - a lot of riders, old and young, CAN'T and NEVER WILL be able to do it. You cannot learn balance, you either have it or you don't.

From my perspective, as someone who gets around the country a bit, I haven't yet met anyone who is pursuing the cause of getting the rules changed universally back to no-stop. Riders like me, whether they are over 40 or not, who ride the B route in their club or centre trials or ride the clubman route at nationals, don't really have to worry about the rules.

The sections in those events don't require trick riding and can be managed in a non-stop fashion (some events are non-stop, some aren't but these riders ride the same whichever) Granted, the ability to bounce it around a bit would enable the loss of fewer marks and there are one or two around that can do it, but the point is, it isn't absolutely necessary to be able to do it in order to get through the section. Planning for a dab can get you through for a 1 or maybe 2. So for these riders and these events, a rule change would matter little. The object is, in case we've forgotten, to drop fewer marks than anyone else, not CLEAN the trial. Planning a dab is better than crashing for a 5.

So, I don't know where this perception that 'over 40 riders' are tying to change the sport is coming from. Frequent any of these events and you will see that the B route or clubman does not consist solely of over 40 riders. There are plenty of younger one's too at some of them and there are plenty of them who cannot trick ride either. Some can but can't do it as well as some of the handier older riders. So again, the perception by some is wrong.

Over on the expert, or A route, we have our few riders. Out of those, there are a very small amount who can perform the tricks consistently well enough, to the standard required and on any surface or angle, to tackle the 'tight and big stuff'. Then there are those who can hop and bounce all over the car park but fall apart in the sections, in the way I mentioned in the previous post.

So, assuming we have some spectators turn up at a trial, they watch maybe one or two experts very skillfully use their trick riding to get through the section for a clean. They then watch the other half dozen flounder like seal pups on the beach whist recording what should be a 5 probably 2 or 3 times during their stop/start feet down maul through the section.

Not very encouraging for them to want to take the sport up.

[woody]

'Trick' riding in a section is impressive when it gives a rider a clean.

But it can also be very frustrating to watch when a rider tries to hop about and looses marks in a section that is being ridden by others non stop for a clean.

Even in a stop allowed trial, a skilful rider will ride non stop until stopping benefits them.

Agreed, and this is where riders like Dan Thorpe excel. All the tricks in the bag to play with but he rides so smoothly and keeps moving where possible. If the bike needs one hop or two hops, that's what it gets, just the minimum that is needed. No excess. No flash. No 'look at me' posing and bouncing backwards and forwards unecessarily.

It seems to have worked pretty well for him over the years with over 100 national wins.

He rode a couple of Normandale rounds (no-stop rules) this year on the TY Mono and it was great to watch how someone can be so precise and line perfect through a section. The bike just flowed through them.

[tricky dicky]

I had to laugh a good few years ago at a trials school I was doing..

I set a section out where I wanted the riders to put their front wheel on one rock and then place it onto another whilst going round a corner.. ... basically a pivot turn and then up a smallish step.

So I showed them... and the questions came back "We can just hop the back wheel and line up and go that is easier"..Oh and most of them could ride like this too (in the dry)!

BUT when they tried to do it the way I asked, the ones with real riding ability stood out...The other 'Frenzied Hoppers' were OK until we moved onto a slippery section. I asked the same andn they hopped and hopped and couldn't move due to lack of grip.

What am I saying?

Erm ?? Well I'm trying to say that JUST being able to hop on your drive or in the carpark (on a grippy surface) doesn't mean you can can ride. It helps you balance and have a better idea of control sure, but its not the magic key to being able to ride. Just look at the best riders and see how they only do it when necessary.

Regardless of the rules chosen in the trial, you will notice how the better riders move the bike less (or should I say less hastily). This means in general they are more in control. The hopping riding style does more to highlight riders inadequacies more than any other.

If you are describing the section I think you might be then I remember it well!

The pivot turn is a skill that I use wherever possible and I am more than capable with the hopping. The young riders now do not know how to flow through the sections at all and like has been mentioned, the hopping only disguises the riding inadequacies but this is soon found out. I think after a lot of deliberation that the people completely against trying the no stop rule are the ones that can't do it. I have seen this with my own eyes as certain posters on here are the culprits.

I personally think that if the hopping rule is in place then you shouldn't be allowed to dab while stationary ( as it was prior to 1997 ) and then the true skill of hopping will show rather than being able to stand there with a foot down.

[axulsuv]

"I personally think that if the hopping rule is in place then you shouldn't be allowed to dab while stationary ( as it was prior to 1997 ) and then the true skill of hopping will show rather than being able to stand there with a foot down. " AKA parked on your kickstand ...

[bdmc]

We have a BIG core of young riders on OSET's running rules not far away from TSR22A.

Not sure what you mean 'rules not far away from tsr22a' In the ACU handbook there are only 2 sets of rules to run under. TSR22a and TSR22b. Nowhere does it state you can amend these rules to suit your-self. Do you have permission from the ACU to amend the Trials Standing Regulations? What happens if there is an accident between a parent and a rider he is assisting in a section. One question may be asked 'what was the parent doing in the section and what rules was you marking under. Answer ; not far away from tsr22a? Claim thrown out. CoC in court

[telecat]

Not sure what you mean 'rules not far away from tsr22a' In the ACU handbook there are only 2 sets of rules to run under. TSR22a and TSR22b. Nowhere does it state you can amend these rules to suit your-self. Do you have permission from the ACU to amend the Trials Standing Regulations? What happens if there is an accident between a parent and a rider he is assisting in a section. One question may be asked 'what was the parent doing in the section and what rules was you marking under. Answer ; not far away from tsr22a? Claim thrown out. CoC in court

The Rules were agreed with the ACU for the OSET Trials and refer to "Parental Assistance" in getting though a section. They also only apply to "E" class. Basically a clean is achieved by getting though a section without dabbing or PA. Dabbing without PA is up to 2, Getting though a section with PA is 3. It means a Five is only given with a Fall off or missing flags. Stopping does not incur a penalty. I stand to be corrected as I haven't been to many of these Trials but I'm sure Dave Horne will be able to clarify.

[bdmc]

The rules that I have seen and has been discussed, is a 4 for PA? This is documented on the tri folder in the club pack. But if it is OK with the ACU no problem

[telecat]

The rules that I have seen and has been discussed, is a 4 for PA? This is documented on the tri folder in the club pack. But if it is OK with the ACU no problem

Could well be. I wish they had been around 15 years ago. It's definitely the way the sport will grow.

[gasgasjamie]

However - and this is the kicker as far as I'm concerned - When you see trials on the TV or Youtube - it's seeing Tony Bou hopping up ridiculous walls etc. that set's the blood alight and makes you want to get out there and learn those skills. In reality, of course only a tiny percentage get to that level but it gets people through the door. I'm sorry but even footage of the SSDT is bloody dull (if you don't know what you're looking at).

Therefore - LONG TERM, Trials will need the exciting/showcase riding to keep it in the public eye and alive. That's what new people see and think "Wow - that's so cool". UNLESS the industry excepts that it only really caters for over 30's. If it does that though, it's future is probably limited - like it or not, you need new blood whether it's old or young and Stop-Allowed LOOKS far better than no-stop.

This is why there is a split, and why this debate has run for so long and will continue for a while to come.

It seems as though, on the whole, there is two types of trials riders around today. Ones who find the WTC and the big stuff exciting and ones who prefer trials like the SSDT. There is nothing wrong with either point of view, but the contrast in riding style is so big that is very difficult to cater for both in a normal club event.

I recently asked my flat-mate for his view. He is 25, has never seen trials before and therefore, while of course is only one person and so cannot be seen as speaking for everyone, he can look at these rules and styles from a completely neutral point of view.

I showed him lost of YouTube footage of Toni Bou, the WTC and some indoor stuff. At first he was 'wowed' by the skills and just what could be done on a bike, but soon got bored of watching what he said was 'different people doing the same thing' and said that it was like watching FMX, where its good for a bit but soon becomes very repetitive and that he got fed up of all the stopping where nothing was happening.

I then showed him footage of the SSDT and Scott trials. Whilst he said it was still a bit repetitive, he was still interested in it afterwards. This shows that not everyone outside the sport wants to see big steps and Toni Bou bouncing everywhere on the back wheel. In fact, this has been the way for quite a few years, as years ago when I ask friends whilst at school what bit of an indoor shown on Eurosport they had enjoyed the most, none of them said 'the big steps'.

Perhaps what makes trials so different to other motorsports is that is does appeal to so many different people. It appeals to the adrenaline seeker who wants to find out just how big he can go, but it also appeals to the more reserved rider who just enjoys being able to ride with his friends. To me, this wide appeal and the ability to have so many different people of different skill levels in one place is what makes trials so great, but it has also become its biggest problem.

Edited December 22, 2011 by GasGasJamie