alta Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Does anyone have any experience of the latest alloy bodied Betors compared to Rockshocks?(My Cub is due some new shocks)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motomike Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Are the betors all alloy ? or just part alloy. based on the steel version, IMHO Rockshocks would have to be the choice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alta Posted December 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 All alloy as far as I know.I've used Rockshocks before and they were very good but just wondered about the new Betors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 The Betors aren't alloy bodied, it is only the bush mountings that are alloy, the actual body is steel. If you're thinking of Betors you may as well save money and buy the older style black steel bodied version. No different in performance. Whichever you buy, 'alloy' or steel, the chances of getting a good set are the same with either. Some work very well, some don't. There is no consistency. For the money you won't beat steel bodied Falcons, a fair bit cheaper than the 'alloy' Betors and a lot cheaper than the Rockshocks - work better than either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totalshell Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 spot on Woody unless you can really tell the difference and make something of it you'd be wasting money .. a lot.. given the same bike and rider weight i ve just gone from the 'alloy' betors ( only alloy in very few places) to a set of black falcons the difference in grip is measurable for me as even a poor rider.. the betors were far too hard and bounced the falcons move and grip and the falcons weigh less.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b40rt Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 You see a lot of old Rockshocks about, still going strong as all parts are available. Dont know anything about Falcons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzuki250 Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 I purchased as set NJB shocks, they seem very good and they were set-up to my weight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausy300pro Posted December 24, 2011 Report Share Posted December 24, 2011 I am interested that Woody says Falcons are better than rock shocks, any reason why ? I bought some rock shocks and cannot fault the performance (I was replacing a totally knackered old pair of betors though), I had them built to my spec, i.e. for my weight and bike and with damping on the light side, also had service second to none from John bull, just wondered (woody) is it like most things, down to personal preference as long as you buy a reasonably good quality piece of kit, and lets face it, it is the lump of lard on top of the thing that makes the most difference with trials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted December 24, 2011 Report Share Posted December 24, 2011 You're right to an extent, it is personal preference and if you have a pair of shocks that you're happy with, whatever the make, then that is all that matters. As to why I think the Falcons are better, I think they have a better valving arrangement which works better across the whole stroke and the springs are better. I don't know whether Falcon springs have been made to his spec over the years or whether they are off the shelf items from another application, but they seem to always work well for as long as I've been using Falcons (20 odd years) The valving has been improved over the years as well, with different piston designs. The Rockshocks have the same valving as the original 80s versions and I've found that the springs, whatever the rate, aren't up to the job, at least not for my weight anyway, they seem too weak (although I haven't tried the latest springs) I don't think they are custome made, more likely off the shelf items but just because they have a rate/poundage in the trials range, that doesn't necessarily mean they will work well. Springs are a science (that I don't understand) and gap between the coils, wire thickness, metal grade etc. all make a difference to how they work. If the wire is poor quality or whatever, they won't keep their rate and will sag. The construction of the Rockshocks is not the issue, they're very good, it is just the set up and the springing that I find not quite there. I bought a pair from Eddy when he first started doing them again but couldn't get them working anywhere near as well as the Falcons on the same bike. Recently I dug them out and had some springs made and played with different valving and I've got them working almost how I want, just need to get out and try them now. Ultimately, it's what you want and how much feedback your looking for from the shocks as well as how you ride. The Magical shocks on my Bultaco work really well for me on slow speed and high speed but others have tried it and find them too soft or too quick. I guess it's all about perceptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulb Posted December 24, 2011 Report Share Posted December 24, 2011 Alloy Rockshock every time. I've had several sets from John Bull and he is happy for you to take your bike to him and if needed he will change springing and shimming to suit you, so you leave with a set of shocks right for your bike and your weight. Also as they are not gas filled, with a few basic tools you can rebuild yourself. All the parts available and john is happy to rebiuld for you or talk you through the process.Although I have one set that has been on for 5 years now ans still like new. I've found Falcons to be generally overdamped and more expensive, also they are gas filled which may be needed for motocross but not for classic trials Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted December 25, 2011 Report Share Posted December 25, 2011 Rockshocks, as far as I know are about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smelling123 Posted December 26, 2011 Report Share Posted December 26, 2011 I have some alloy Falcons and they no longer use the circlip type pre-load adjustment, they have a threaded body with double locknut - you get 2 spanners with them. Never tried the rockshocks but the falcons seem excellent - much better than any betors ive owned. My only reservation is consistent critisim from people on this site of response time for support (although I havent experienced any problems myself) - not good if you have a damaged set and need a repair. Most comments seem to endorse the support for Rockshocks. I'd never considered a 'home rebuild' but sounds feasible based on Woodys post. Do you know what pressure should be used Woody? Incidentally, lots of car tyre outlets will fill tyres with nitrogen - not sure if they could achieve this with the falcons as I seem to remember you need a special pump due to the low volume ?? Last comment is the weight of the falcons - really light! Oil heavier than nitrogen.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feetupfun Posted December 26, 2011 Report Share Posted December 26, 2011 I have some alloy Falcons and they no longer use the circlip type pre-load adjustment, they have a threaded body with double locknut - you get 2 spanners with them. Never tried the rockshocks but the falcons seem excellent - much better than any betors ive owned. My only reservation is consistent critisim from people on this site of response time for support (although I havent experienced any problems myself) - not good if you have a damaged set and need a repair. Most comments seem to endorse the support for Rockshocks. I'd never considered a 'home rebuild' but sounds feasible based on Woodys post. Do you know what pressure should be used Woody? Incidentally, lots of car tyre outlets will fill tyres with nitrogen - not sure if they could achieve this with the falcons as I seem to remember you need a special pump due to the low volume ?? Last comment is the weight of the falcons - really light! Oil heavier than nitrogen.. Just because Falcons have gas pressure doesn't mean they don't have oil. They have oil just like all other shocks which is what provides the damping as it travels through restrictive gaps and holes. All shockies have gas somewhere inside. There has to be a gas space somewhere inside or connected to the inside to allow for the change in internal volume of the shock body as the shaft moves in and out, otherwise they would not move (oil does not compress) Falcons and many others use a static gas pressure higher than atmospheric to reduce the formation of bubbles within the oil and to assist the shaft seals to seal. A side effect of the gas pressure is a small extending force due to the cross sectional area of the shaft. Dry air works perfectly well in Falcons but does reduce the life of the oil compared with using nitrogen due to the presence of oxygen in the air. If you use air it just means that the oil needs changing more frequently. I change oil annually but it seems fine when it comes out. Falcons are not sensitive to what pressure is used. I have found that anything between 60psi and 90psi works fine. I use a basic direct drive (cheap) air compressor at home to add the gas. It could be done using the tyre inflating gear at a car refuelling station but it is easiest if the shockie is being held firmly (fitted to the bike) so you can pull the air valve chuck off quickly to avoid loss of pressure as you remove it from the valve. There is no seperator between the oil and gas inside standard Falcons which is why they have to be fitted with the shaft at the bottom (gas at the top) Standard steel-bodied Trial Classic Falcons are relatively light because they have a single wall tube of a sensible thickness and the attachments and springs are well designed. Also the dust seal holder, the oil seal holder, the upper spring retainer and the piston are made of aluminium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat Posted December 26, 2011 Report Share Posted December 26, 2011 (edited) ALTA, Most has all ready been clarified in this thread. Do not spend extra money at Betor with few parts alloy..minor weight red and none perfomance benefits vs steel Betor. Im using steel Betor, working after ~100h in use but progressive spring crap design is what it is..a poor compromize ~£100 / pair..well well. A spring set like Magicals would probably be the cheapest upgrade..if found in suitable diam..Ref to Betor these are fully rebuilable, ha ha.. I just want to add, product developent skills and feature level = pricing does matter, CRITICAL 1. nitrogen gas prevent the oil from foaming and as mentioned before prevent the oil absorbing moist/keep cleaner, and can not understand why the very good designed Rockshocks left out this absolute feature...I have asked. When TS trials shocks engineering from, MAXTON and Falcon alloy are close to mono: Ohlins status, even from late 80´ just rebuild again and again.. Note: ..Ohlins TS MX do NOT offer rebound or compression control, unbelivable..~ £900 pair..insain, default setting on each and every short travel susp classic motocross bike.. 2. setting, NOT preload, springs: Here are Magicals superior and I do not understand why they are uniqce offering the possibility to choose different combination of springs per shock for each riders requirements..with the attempt to optimize every part of the travel lengt, especially compression from point zero...splendid input from Mick I guess..Simulate linkage action as I understand. -linear spring + adequate controlled valves/gas and oil flow is always the perfect desing, require state of the art valve design. valves and adjustment of such: -Im surpriced of the fact that MAXTON is the first supplier ever providing TS trials shocks with compression and rebound control... BR, Edited December 26, 2011 by Pat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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