Dear Mr Miller

[wallo]

Why oh why have you changed the rules yet again for your series? Why do you keep on trying to kill off the big British bikes?

[pete_scorpa3]

Why oh why have you changed the rules yet again for your series? Why do you keep on trying to kill off the big British bikes?

The trail bikes used to be a good 'support' class too.

[hrc1]

It seems the trailbike class is dropped completely for 2012.

Why?

[wallo]

The new classes are:

[02-apr]

I'm curious about this, does "as at the time of manufacture" prevent or allow the fitment of a period drum from another make?

[woody]

I'm curious about this, does "as at the time of manufacture" prevent or allow the fitment of a period drum from another make?

It's Allowed.

As regards the big British bikes, what's changed? I can see they've altered the classes but there are still two routes, you can still ride a pre-unit on either and the best performance on a 2-stroke, unit and pre-unit at the end of the series will get an award, so where's the problem?

I can see there is no dedicated pre-unit class in each event anymore but that doesn't prevent you getting out there for the enjoyment of riding your pre-units in a big single lap trial.

[jon v8]

The new classes are:

CLASS 1 - Pre Unit Rigids- Pre 65

CLASS 2 - British Pre 70 Pre-Unit /Unit/2Stroke ( Twinshocks )

CLASS 3 Machines with twinshock rear suspension and drum brakes as at the time of manufacture which are not eligible for class 2

CLASS 4 Sidecar machines eligible for classes 1,2 and 3

All the above to be run on the EASY route

CLASS 5 British Pre 70 Pre Unit/Unit /2 Stroke (Twinshocks)

CLASS 6 Machines with twinshock rear suspension and drum brakes as at the time of manufacture which are not eligible for class 5

The above classes to be run on the HARD route.

Classes 1, 2 & 5 must have British Engine, Carburettor, Forks (Max 35mm ) and hubs, Original or Replica Frame

I was thinking about this yesterday when riding around at the Sam Cooper,seems very unfair to lump Pre unit springers in amongst Cubs,Dot's,James and Fanny B's in class 2. What chance does even a good rider have on a big four stroke against a bike half its weight ?

It cant be encouraging - esp if you have to travel a long way to some events,it does smack of showing little interest in big bikes.Having a trial or series of trials that has big bikes in mind will also keep the sections sensible too.

[woody]

I agree, can't remember why it was changed from having a seperate pre-unit class but it makes no sense for someone riding a big pre-unit having to compete in the same championship class as one of the lightweight 2-strokes - especially on tight fiddly sections that suit Bantams, James, Dot etc.

Time to give them back their own class, even if it's poorly supported at first. Competing against similar bikes in their own class may encourage others back out. This should apply to both hard and easy routes.

[jon v8]

That would sort it,to me having plenty of big four stroke bikes goes a long way to keeping Pre65 alive. My Ariel is still at 54" wheelbase etc,so no way would it,(Or me )have a chance on sections set out to cater for a majority of lightweights.To buy a Bartram frame,trick forks,hubs etc,etc would cost a few thousand.But without a class that gives it a fair chance it can stay in the shed....

How many others must be thinking the same way,plus we four stroke fans are all getting older - I'll be 50 next year and I only know two riders younger than me that regularly ride big bikes.The classes need sorting out to keep the bikes being used.

[laird387]

Hi,

All those busy changing the rules should learn that 'If it ain't broke - don't fix it' - when I was setting the rules and acting as unpaid Series Co-ordinator we had just over 450 riders who rode in at least three rounds of the series - and over 70 who rode in EVERY round.

To my mind riders on 'proper' machines can only be riding for the fun of it these days - there is not a jot of 'fairness' or 'equal goalposts' in it any more.

But if those who are riding it are enjoying a day out in the fresh air - then so be it, live and let live.

Deryk Wylde,

Joint-Creator, and Series Coordinator for the first TEN years.

[laird387]

Hi wallo,

One interesting point in all the discussions - poor old Sammy Miller is being 'slated' again for trying to influence the demise of the bigger bikes whereas, to my certain knowledge the only influence that Sam has - or has ever had - is to dig in his pockets and provide for the provision of awards.

The real influences are the A-CU members who just don't understand the sport of trials but are happy to feel the importance of being seen on committees........

[laird387]

I'm curious about this, does "as at the time of manufacture" prevent or allow the fitment of a period drum from another make?

That rule was specifically introduced, by me, as it happens, in order to prevent people fitting 'modern' alloy components in place of the original heavy steel items, so if you couldn't find a genuine old Ariel steel back hub, for example, you could fit a similar unit from a Triumph Trophy or BSA B31 or 33. Why, because losing a few pounds weight from your machine was easy if you had a big wallet - but not so easy if your only source of affordable parts was the scrapyard - and the whole essence was to maintain fair competition, not to be able to demonstrate spending power.

[laird387]

I was thinking about this yesterday when riding around at the Sam Cooper,seems very unfair to lump Pre unit springers in amongst Cubs,Dot's,James and Fanny B's in class 2. What chance does even a good rider have on a big four stroke against a bike half its weight ?

It cant be encouraging - esp if you have to travel a long way to some events,it does smack of showing little interest in big bikes.Having a trial or series of trials that has big bikes in mind will also keep the sections sensible too.

It is not just the classes, in my view, that need sorting - it is the setting of 'silly' contrived sections with too tight turns, etc., that create an artificial advantage for the small lightweight machines - perhaps a return to the original principles would be the best aim?

To remind everyone, here are the original rules.

"1. MACHINE ELIGIBILITY:

To be eligible machines must have been manufactured in Britain, prior to the 31 December 1958 for vintage twostroke

machines; prior to 31 December 1964 for all pre-unit classes; prior to 31 December 1969 for twostroke and unit construction

classes. All major components to include frames, forks, hubs, engines, gearboxes, clutches and carburettors must be of

British manufacturer and available on general sale to the public before the date of eligibility for the class concerned, with the

minor concession that Amal carburettors up to Mk 1 Concentric may be fitted. Motorcycles fitted with non-British components

during manufacture, such as Ceriani forks on certain Greeves models and Grimeca hubs on some DOT models, will be accepted as

British, but those components will not be accepted on machines of other manufacture. Any model of British manufacture but with component

parts that are not date eligible, such as alloy slider BSA or Triumph forks (1972) on unit models, may ride in the Specials

class. Replica frames are accepted in the class of machine that they replicate provided they are dimensionally accurate replicas,

i.e. components from the original models will fit without modification. Trail machines may be of any manufacture but must

have fully working lights. Allocation of the correct class will be verified, if required, by the Series Coordinator.

The decision as to which class a hybrid machine is allotted shall be made such as to place the machine in the more competitive

class, for example an Enfield Bullet motor mounted in Enfield Crusader cycle parts is deemed to be a unit model. The

essence of the eligibility rules is to encourage fair competition.

2. CLASSES:

1 Girder Fork Rigid 2 Telefork Rigid

3 Pre-unit Springer 4 Vintage Twostroke

5 Twostroke 6 Unit Construction

7 Pre-unit Sidecar 8 Unit Sidecar

9 Specials 10 Trail

Additional supporting classes may be included at the Organisers discretion, but their marks must be completely

segregated in the Results.

3. COURSE:

The courses will be between 30 and 60 miles in length and include 25 to 35 sub-sections of a type suited both to the type of

machines and to the fact that the majority of riders are likely to be of a clubman standard. All machines will ride the

same sections, dual-marked routes are not allowed. Up to 5 sections may be set as 'solo only', and alternative sidecar sections

may be set in lieu. To maintain fairness of competition the rigid solo classes are treated as sidecars insofar as they sections they

ride. In no case are steep drops or excessive steep steps to be included and tight turns are to be avoided. It is unlikely that

Organisers offering more than a single lap event will be successful in the competition to be awarded rounds in future years."

Thoughts, anybody????????

[laird387]

Hi,

The first two callers with thoughts on my previous posting - which surprised me so early in the morning, but - were concerned as to how we sorted out the 'inevitable' ties that must have been created by only having one route, so nothing to sort out the 'expert' riders. The simple answer is that we would have added together the combined age of the rider and his machine and given the award to the oldest combination.

Notice I did say 'we would have', because in the ten years with an average of twelve trials a year we never, ever had a tie in any class that we had to resolve - so if there were no ties in, say, 120 trials, all riding the same route - why do you need multiple routes?

The next query was "what sort of scores did the class winners post?" In most cases on our sections - many of them, don't forget, sections that had been used for decades before the SSA (Second Spanish Armada), the class winners scored well under five marks per trial, and I made all organisers agree to include at least one section that every body cleaned - how else do you encourage newcomers to the sport to feel they have achieved something - to come again and try harder.

Incidentally I have ridden in quite a few trials, mainly in the south-eastern centre, with dual routes - and I often found that the so-called 'easy' routes were actually harder to ride than the 'difficult' version..........

Like I said in an earlier posting - 'if it ain't broke - don't fix it....'

Edited October 26, 2014 by laird387

[16cs ajs]

As always Deryk, your retrospective, first hand experiences, provoke contemplation of the past and concern for the future. With the inevitable passage of time, we have to accept change, however painful. I well remember admiring Pete Robson, manfully riding his girder rigid Levis through sections at Scarborough 2 day & Yorks Classic Captain's trial, while I took the easier option of riding a Cub or Cotton. How many girder rigids or genuine, springer pre units are regularly seen in competition now? As the experienced older riders, understandably now chose to compete on progressively lighter more nimble bikes, witnessed by the recent proliferation of trick Bantams and younger entrants prefer high spec two strikes, I fear for the future of larger capacity four strikes. Some clubs, such as YCMCC & Poachers, strive to encourage pre units, with limited success. It is certainly no fault of "Sam the Man" who stayed faithful to large capacity pre units in particular & 4 strikes in general that current classic trials and their classes favour trick, lightweights at the expense of proper pre 65s! We can only hope that everything goes in cycles. However my bet would be the growth of twin shocks and air cooled monos, for a host of depressing but sadly irrefutable reasons, including price, availability & suitability to increasingly harder sections. On this occasion, I really would like to be proven wrong. Time, as they say, will tell.