"Trick-Shocks" Is This The Way To Go?

[pschrauber]

I read this post with a lot of interest, I feel very lucky that here in Quebec we do not have any of those rules problem. At any of our competion ( I should say meeting ) only around 15 riders compete and you should see the bikes that are registered, the rules are twin shocks, drum brakes air cooled motor, and oh yes many laugh from most of the riders that are just there for fun, I sure wish that if '' competition '' get's in the way of our meeting they will change rules and make two class one for the riders that have to win something at all cost and one for the other that ride what ever they like and want to have a good time. You see for me trial riding is a sport and not a job, I have to be competitive at work. This year I hope to ride a modified TY frame with a well prepared 250cc motor just for fun, if the organiser decide that I should not compete for points I hope they will let me ride on the course they prepared at the competition they organised on the land they sometime rent all of that as the saying goes '' for fraction of the cost '' . I took some time last year to help ( a bit ) the organiser of one meeting and I can assure you that riding IS the fun part NOT organising. My hat off to any organiser specialy to the one that have to make new rules.

Guy

I have followed the discussion also very interested.

I believe, not sure here, the very easygoing rules you have left so much room for interpretation depending the bikes that this new class of modified twinshock bikes just appeard. Once the evolution is present there is no way back.

This was probably encouraged through the fact that monoshock bikes modified to twinshock bikes where allowed.

Then I believe with your higher numbers of riders the competition between the clubs and riders is harder as in my country f. e..

As you have more riders in the hole a second "modded twinshock class" should not be a problem? There is in my personal view one point that has to be solved, a new segregation concept has to be developed between the modified and the standard twinshocks (and between the modified twinshocks to the EVO class too). When this is done you might be out of trouble again.

I understand and esteem every rider that want to keep his bike as original as possible as a contemporary technical machine which includes that he want's to ride sections that will fit to the bike. I have too deep respect for some of the rebuilds that where shown here so far, (I personal would not go as long in every aspect expecially when it is an invention which haven't shown up when the bikes where in regular use), and understand the demand of these builders/riders to take part in a competition.

Anyway my personal opinion is along with our rules we have, just as an example here recorded:

Twinshocks from 1966 and newer:

The bike should be prepared in accordance with the age. Components, with the twin-shock motorcycles are not common and were not possible, should not be used.

The design of frames, front forks, engine, transmission, exhaust systems and wheel hubs must meet the twinshock standards of the trial motorcycles from 1966 (and newer).

The motorcycle must have two spring legs. In each case a shock on the left and right rear wheel, which is supported on the frame and the rear swingarm.

Disc brakes and cooling water are prohibited, as reconstructed monoshock motorcycles.

Further prohibited are:

hydraulically actuated clutches, reed valve two-strokes in, carbon-aluminum and titanium parts for the rear swingarm, frame, frames, axles and tires without tubes.

Exception:

handlebars, levers and attachments or parts have been found earlier for the construction or series of twin-shock motorcycles were series of twin-shock motorcycles were used. (Grandfathering).

Due to the grandfathering rule the TY with reeds is allowed, likewise twinshock bikes that have an aluminium swing arm as standard are allowed. The grandfathering rule is also the "loophole" for any prototype bike that was ridden back then and open also in my personal view a chance for anyone who likes to screw around and to modify his bike as long as this was a clearly contemporary and commen modification, (it should belong to the creator/rider of the modified bike to clearly prove this by evidence whenever in need).

Maybe this helps and enriches the possibilities where to go in the future, to choose the single flowers that suits you best out of the bouqeut of different possibilities is certainly your job.

[andy m]

I have followed the discussion also very interested.

As you have more riders in the hole a second "modded twinshock class" should not be a problem?

Didn't I read in this or the other similar thread where OTF and Charlie want rules changed to suit their criteria that OTFs club was struggling for riders ?? Whereas down here in the South West no rules have been altered and we can see 100+ riders, mostly T. shocks and Pre 65s. DaveD444 has made a few good observations and points... (i y k w I m)

Meanwhile I'll get back on the fence, in the South West if it aint broke etc etc etc ...

[old trials fanatic]

Hi Charlie

What touches a nerve with me is that twinshock trials is still reasonably inexpensive and people have been making modifications for many years on this type of bike - just look at the developments involved in Vesty's Bultaco or man other twinshock bikes from the end of that era in order to try and keep up with air-cooled monos because that particular brand might have been caught napping by Yamaha releasing the mono and gaining ground on the opposition.

Twinshock bikes were an evolution in trials at a time when bikes changed significantly and there is an awful lot of engineering exellence out there that will not be seen when a period bike will be classed as 'too trick' to ride in the class for the year that it was actually competing.

I have been approached by many people (including some from the Derbyshire region) for my thought on this and their conern that organisers of classic trials who missed the opportunity to do something about the rediculous situation with Pre 65 bikes are now clamping down on twinshocks and could be spoiling it - their words not mine!

For me, twinshocks still represent a relatively cheap way to go trialling and not lose money in depreciation each year along with an opportunity to ride bikes from my youth. In 1981 when my SWM was new I was 15 and Burgat had won the world championship on one so it is logiical that this is the type of bike I want to ride as I didn't start riding till much later and wanted a bike that I would have ridden in my youth.

A question for the rule makers that has been sent to me this morning - is whether or not TY Yams which were all originally fitted with straight axle forks (which means far too much trail, and pretty dodgy steering) are going to need to run in the PC Trick-Shock class if they have later leading axle forks fitted, which is a mod which provides a far greater improvement than fitting 38mm forks to bikes which already have leading axle forks?

Any meaningful rules need to be applied equally across the board, and it seems to me that if PC are wanting your bike to run as a Trick-Shock, then the same thing needs to be applied to any bike which has an upgraded front end fitted, especially so in the case of TYs where changing the forks makes such a big difference.

[old trials fanatic]

Didn't I read in this or the other similar thread where OTF and Charlie want rules changed to suit their criteria that OTFs club was struggling for riders ?? Whereas down here in the South West no rules have been altered and we can see 100+ riders, mostly T. shocks and Pre 65s. DaveD444 has made a few good observations and points... (i y k w I m)

Meanwhile I'll get back on the fence, in the South West if it aint broke etc etc etc ...

Good fortune to you and all the riders in the south west. I didnt want rules changed, we never had any, i just wanted some rules to stop some of the abuses of the spirit of Classic British and Twinshock Trials.

I may be wrong in wanting this? Going from opinions expressed on this forum it appears so. But at least i have tried. If the Club folds due to a lack of support then so be it but at least i tried

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy

[turbo]

have been following this thread with interest I now would like to add my bit. I dont think any problems actualy exist ,what I do think is that some of you are actually doing your best to find one. i think the worse thing that that can happen to the twinshock scene is to be too closely linked to the pre 65 brigade. Up to now I cant re call any particular problems with bikes and riders that have turned up on the scene. I ride with the likes of Dave in the Sammy Miller series on my "trixshock" fantic and last year we were all beaten by Mark on his Seemingly standard ossa gripper thats because he was THE BETTER RIDER, my point is as follows, it makes no odds we are only on a day out , cant we just accept that some people actually get some enjoyment out of preparing a bike that is just fit for purpose, me on my fantic with its mono engine( they are not that much better if at all anyway) sherco forks, decent shocks , fat bars ,modern grips, s3 sticker ! ,Dave on his SWM, as he said not really that trick ,he is just another chap that gets PLEASURE from turning out on a nice bike.Modified aircooled monos,maybe its me but I know of only one that competes nationally and he only gets noticed because he rides well. Personally I dont think its a superior machine any way its just the riders ability It does seem that the same old arguments keep being regurgatated mainly by those who seem hell bent on insisting that there is a problem. There are those that suggest that the club secretary ( quite often wife of rider just helping out ) should now be burdened with the policing of the ridiculous inspections , and those that suggest all of this red tape will actually increase interest in the sport.Here deep in the south west centre we only have one dedicated classic trials club that promotes 2 events per year ,all other riding takes place riding in class at modern events,and I understand no problems exist, people ride what they want to ride and we all have a good days sport, my god it must be stressfull going to an event knowing the clipboard police will be there. Happy riding, Martin.

[old trials fanatic]

Just banging my head again I feel. And it is now getting sore. :wall:

Regards Charlie.

Know what you mean Charlie :wall: is it all worth the hassle? beginning to wonder? Probably not really the more i think about it.

[turbo]

Know what you mean Charlie :wall: is it all worth the hassle? beginning to wonder? Probably not really the more i think about it.

Hi, and thank you , you have hit the nail on the head .

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy's,

Hi OTF,

I feel only time will tell??? Not a problem to me,

[daved444]

have been following this thread with interest I now would like to add my bit. I dont think any problems actualy exist ,what I do think is that some of you are actually doing your best to find one. i think the worse thing that that can happen to the twinshock scene is to be too closely linked to the pre 65 brigade. Up to now I cant re call any particular problems with bikes and riders that have turned up on the scene. I ride with the likes of Dave in the Sammy Miller series on my "trixshock" fantic and last year we were all beaten by Mark on his Seemingly standard ossa gripper thats because he was THE BETTER RIDER, my point is as follows, it makes no odds we are only on a day out , cant we just accept that some people actually get some enjoyment out of preparing a bike that is just fit for purpose, me on my fantic with its mono engine( they are not that much better if at all anyway) sherco forks, decent shocks , fat bars ,modern grips, s3 sticker ! ,Dave on his SWM, as he said not really that trick ,he is just another chap that gets PLEASURE from turning out on a nice bike.Modified aircooled monos,maybe its me but I know of only one that competes nationally and he only gets noticed because he rides well. Personally I dont think its a superior machine any way its just the riders ability It does seem that the same old arguments keep being regurgatated mainly by those who seem hell bent on insisting that there is a problem. There are those that suggest that the club secretary ( quite often wife of rider just helping out ) should now be burdened with the policing of the ridiculous inspections , and those that suggest all of this red tape will actually increase interest in the sport.Here deep in the south west centre we only have one dedicated classic trials club that promotes 2 events per year ,all other riding takes place riding in class at modern events,and I understand no problems exist, people ride what they want to ride and we all have a good days sport, my god it must be stressfull going to an event knowing the clipboard police will be there. Happy riding, Martin.

Absolutely spot on Martin! You have hit the nail firmly on the head....

See you in Devon in a few weeks for some good old fashioned fun with a hundred or so others ;0)

[hondars250]

Absolutely spot on Martin! You have hit the nail firmly on the head....

See you in Devon in a few weeks for some good old fashioned fun with a hundred or so others ;0)

Yes I would agree with both of you(daveD444 and Turbo) Reading this, it seems to me OTF has come full circle one minute against rule then making them for his club. He's saying that he made a rule that does not affect 99% of riders so what's the point of making it for 1% of his turnout 1% of 60-70 riders !!!!! dur. All I can say is that I know at least 6-7 riders that used to ride at OTFs trials now ride elsewhere myself included mainly because of his rantings last year about the Scottish pre 65 but also the rule changes and the change in the excellent atmosphere which has disappeared.

All I hope is that it's not to late to turn things around?

Paul

[old trials fanatic]

Yes I would agree with both of you(daveD444 and Turbo) Reading this, it seems to me OTF has come full circle one minute against rule then making them for his club. He's saying that he made a rule that does not affect 99% of riders so what's the point of making it for 1% of his turnout 1% of 60-70 riders !!!!! dur. All I can say is that I know at least 6-7 riders that used to ride at OTFs trials now ride elsewhere myself included mainly because of his rantings last year about the Scottish pre 65 but also the rule changes and the change in the excellent atmosphere which has disappeared.

All I hope is that it's not to late to turn things around?

Paul

You know not one person has put forward any alternative rules we could use. We as an ACU club used the East Midlands Centre Championship rules to define what was and what was not acceptable. As we are now an AMCA club are you proposing that an AMCA club uses ACU Championship rules to define machine eligability at AMCA events? That would be a first i suppose. The rules were deliberately worded so as not to disadvantage the majority of riders currently riding at the club but to also take into account what bikewise is happening elsewhere i.e. the increasing modernisation of Twinshocks along the lines of what happened to Pre65. Obviously you would prefer the situation to have no brakes put on it and Twinshocks to be allowed to develop into bikes that bear no resemblance to a Bultaco, Ossa, Montesa whatever. Fine if thats your point of view but as you have obviously read our rules which ones are ruining it for everybody?

The eligability rules were written to try to encourage more riders to take part on a cheap but useable twinshock or home built British bike using easily available cheap parts available at bike breakers anywhere. However it's the riders of the heavily modernised bikes that are protesting Wonder why? Most clubs have elegability rules it's part of motor sport. At least then you can build a bike to a known set of rules. Are you saying thats a bad thing? Why?

Everybody has the choice of shopping where they like and trials riders will ride where they like also thats called personal choice. You cant please all the people all the time and some of them none of the time.

Now there isnt a Classic Club in the East Midlands ACU perhaps there are 6-7 or more riders who would like to start one more to their liking? Nothing to stop you. Wish you luck and success

Edited February 13, 2012 by Old trials fanatic

[b40rt]

However it's the riders of the heavily modernised bikes that are protesting Wonder why?

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy's.

Hi Martin.

This is what you have said [and those that suggest all of this red tape will actually increase interest in the sport.] I do so hope you are right. that is what we set out to do in the first place. :thumbup:

Regards Charlie.

[old trials fanatic]

So what did we learn from all this? apart from you can always become more unpopular than you think you can

Well firstly and i am going to look at Twinshocks in particular because i dont personally think Pre65 or whatever you want to call it has the same "problems" because to some extent the Scottish and other clubs like Yorkshire Classic, Red Rose etc help to put a brake on "modernisation".

There are a growing number of Twinshock riders who want and have a modernised bike with front ends from 2000 or later right up to the present day even Maxton forks are now appearing. These riders will also have fitted many more modernisation updates to make their bike perform more like a conventional modern bike including tubeless rims and tyres, monoshock motors, super light frames that are called replicas but bear no resemblance to the frame they are replicating etc. Now these riders have a vested interest, not least a very large financial one, in maintaining the status quo as if not and there was a swing back to more "standard" Twinshocks with just small mods say footrest position, bars and choice of shocks but still retaining standard size allowed their modern twinshock would plummet in value. These riders will fight tooth and nail to maintain their advantage.

All that was proposed was that the modernised bikes run in a seperate class, with similar modernised bikes, from the more traditional standard machines. Incidentally this also applied to British bikes as even Yorkshire Classic have a "specials" class which i understand is well supported so shouldnt have been a problem as it works there well enough.

However and heres where it all fell apart as soon as the riders of the modernised Twinshock thought they would no longer be competing against std bikes for class victory and awards there was uproar and the accusations started flying. In fact nobody was told they couldnt ride. There was no suggestion of the "clipboard police", that one did make me smile wish i'd thought of it, inspecting every bike not that anybody bothered to ask me how i was intending to implement the eligability rules. There was even a class now for bikes, air cooled monos with twin shocks fitted, which we previously didnt allow but again uproar. I remember when we first said that any air cooled mono fitted with twin shock could still ride but in the air cooled mono class not against the Twinshocks there was uproar about that too which i couldnt understand either.

Riders who had a bike that didnt comply with the eligability rules but didnt want to ride as a Trickshox also had the option to ride on a no Club Championship points scoring basis but that wasnt acceptable, judging by the response on here, either as they still wanted to ride their Gas Gas/Sherco/Beta/Bultaco/OSSA/Montesa/Fantic/Whatever Hybrid in the Twinshock class against more std bikes. Now just forgetting that you may own one of these are you seriously saying this if fair and right?

The intention of introducing the Trickshox class for me, other people not Charlie BTW involved in discussions about this which have taken place not on TC may have other agendas some of which may be business linked as they provide a lot of services advertised on the web that cater for modernised twinshocks and air cooled mono conversions, was to try to keep the competition fair and have bikes with an obvious technical advantage competing like for like whilst also encouraging riders of more standard Twinshocks to keep riding. A std Bultaco,OSSA, TY etc bought off e bay is still a relatively affordable entry to the sport. I also didnt want to discourage, as usual i have seemed to acieve exactly what i set out not to achieve, people who enjoy building and pushing the limits. I really love the engineering on some of the modernised Twinshocks and British Bikes.

Anyway i will keep the Trickshox class, might rename it the Evo class or something because i feel some egos cant accept the term Trickshox, and riders can enter their bike in whatever class their conscience tells them is right. There is always the opportunity for another rider to protest the bike is not eligable for the class it's running in as per the eligability rules which incidentally i did also say i was open to sensible discussion on. Not that anybody bothered to discuss them with me. Oh well.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Old trials fanatic