Pre65 Class Bikes

[grahamjayzee]

Good post, OTF.

I think you've distilled this down to the essence; it's generally the trial that's the problem, not the bike!

If the majority want to wobble through on old bikes, the trial should reflect that. If the top 5 hotshots go clean, they can always enter as experts (or whatever) on the same bike and test themselves against the skilled (in my area) minority. After all, in many of the trials I ride, the top experts seem to do that anyway. And why shouldn't they?

Catering for the best is always going to lead to problems. After all, if Dougie turned up to one of our trials, he'd win it on a wheelie bin (no disrespect to local experts, of course!).

There is nothing to stop the very best riders turning up on totally unsuitable bikes if they want the challenge, is there? Vespa class anyone?

Graham

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy

[big_red_bike]

Hi could someone tell me what is so special about the sprite in question ,as i see it it is no differant to 99% of the james,fb,cubs etc ,eg trick forks,modern shocks ,moddified or new frames.So if this has to be in the trickshock-expert class then almost every other bike out there must also enter the trickshock-expert class regardless of the riders ability .I wonder if all the beginners-wobblers will be riding the expert route this year.

[bisby]

A long time back i was chatting to an older member of the Sheff & Hallamshire club about setting sections out and his way was if it was a novice trial it would have one hard part, centre trial two hard parts and a national trial would have three or more also the scale of hardness would increase.

I ride my ossa because i enjoy the challange of me and the bike against the section not my fellow competitors, riding a heavily modified classic bike is in my view loosing sight of what classic trials is about.

My bike is slightly modified mainly to have a bit more power but it still has its original looks and feel, if i have to ride in the trickshock class i have no problem with that, i wiil still be having fun and riding with other competitors on there classic bikes.

steve.

[big_red_bike]

A long time back i was chatting to an older member of the Sheff & Hallamshire club about setting sections out and his way was if it was a novice trial it would have one hard part, centre trial two hard parts and a national trial would have three or more also the scale of hardness would increase.

I ride my ossa because i enjoy the challange of me and the bike against the section not my fellow competitors, riding a heavily modified classic bike is in my view loosing sight of what classic trials is about.

My bike is slightly modified mainly to have a bit more power but it still has its original looks and feel, if i have to ride in the trickshock class i have no problem with that, i wiil still be having fun and riding with other competitors on there classic bikes.

steve.

Hi steve i would not class your bike as modified and the majority of twinshocks are not other than footrests etc.There is not much to be gained on the sections as they are now set out by modified twinshocks.It is the pre 65 bikes i am refering to.

[cvgmmartin]

OTF's comments are particularly well thought through and sensible, however a few other comments seem to suggest a very negative attitude to some of the tricked up bikes and riders. I believe there are no bad trials bikes and that anyone should be allowed to ride what they want, unless of course trials are so oversubscribed that you can have the luxury of turning away riders. The only issue seems to be classify the bikes so that those riders that want a competion can fairly compare their scores. Nobody should ever turn up to a trial and feel that they or their bike is not welcome, and riders should be allowed to ride the level of difficulty thet choose. A rider with a bad back, sore knees, etc should be able to ride a tricked up bike without being told he had to ride the expert line, if that is what he wants then just tell him his score will not be counted in any competion. I am not sure why this issue upsets so many people, the reality is that not many people really want to ride a true pre 65 bike (particularly a 4 stroke)so we shouldn't be surprised that trick bikes have developed.

[charlie prescott]

Hi Guy

[big_red_bike]

Hi i dont no if you get a lot of standard pre 65 bikes competing down south,but here up north most of the bikes are modified so i dont think the sprite having a frame a couple of pounds lighter would give it much advantage.People ride the bike they want to not because it is a few pounds lighter otherwise everybody would be on bantams,i no alot are nowadays but not everyone and often the bigger bikes beat the light ones,it is the riders ability a good rider will win on any bike,look at last years scottish pre 65 for instance.

[old trials fanatic]

Hi i dont no if you get a lot of standard pre 65 bikes competing down south,but here up north most of the bikes are modified so i dont think the sprite having a frame a couple of pounds lighter would give it much advantage.People ride the bike they want to not because it is a few pounds lighter otherwise everybody would be on bantams,i no alot are nowadays but not everyone and often the bigger bikes beat the light ones,it is the riders ability a good rider will win on any bike,look at last years scottish pre 65 for instance.

Been thinking about this a lot recently and i think our club is in a different situation to a lot of clubs in as much that within a 10 mile radius of Matlock there are three Classic Trials Clubs who all run 12 trials a year. What i mean is that the more radical Modernised Pre65 / British Bikes dont seem to turn up. I think they are more prevalent in areas where there are no Classic only clubs and they have to ride as a support class at modern trials. Same with the Modernised Twinshocks who have to ride with modern bikes on modern sections.

Just wanted also to reassure our club members that the new rules , see www.peakclassic.co.uk , will not affect 99% of our riders but will hopefull perhaps encourage a few more to ride in the new Trickshox class and dont forget the over 300cc pre unit championship sponsored by PB Trialsport.

[greeves]

Hi again; thanks for all the answers and also questions in this topic !!! I am really interested in it as here in Spain many people are claiming for a change in the classic trials scene and for me all the opinions here are wellcome.

To be honest nobody has really answer my questions that beggined the topic:

Is this 21

[old trials fanatic]

Hi again; thanks for all the answers and also questions in this topic !!! I am really interested in it as here in Spain many people are claiming for a change in the classic trials scene and for me all the opinions here are wellcome.

To be honest nobody has really answer my questions that beggined the topic:

Is this 21

Edited February 13, 2012 by Old trials fanatic

[tamdodds]

Edinburgh Saint George club are putting on a trials this year year for pre65 and twin shocks,we are going to put on three routs, a masters, a club mans and a gentleman's,The masters for true twin shocks and the pre65 rider who wants a chalenge .The club-mans route for proper pre65 bikes.The gentleman's for the concours type bike with the older rider or beginer on any bike but a mono.The problem is what is a proper Pre65 and what is a tricked out special . The pre65 bike has spiraled out of control on modification and costs and unless rules are put in place now what are twin shocks going to look like in 10 years time.We have set out 4 rules for the twin shocks 1.no hydraulic clutch or brakes. 2. no jumbo forks 3. bikes to run with tubes 4. no converted monos

[b40rt]

Edinburgh Saint George club are putting on a trials this year year for pre65 and twin shocks,we are going to put on three routs, a masters, a club mans and a gentleman's,The masters for true twin shocks and the pre65 rider who wants a chalenge .The club-mans route for proper pre65 bikes.The gentleman's for the concours type bike with the older rider or beginer on any bike but a mono.The problem is what is a proper Pre65 and what is a tricked out special . The pre65 bike has spiraled out of control on modification and costs and unless rules are put in place now what are twin shocks going to look like in 10 years time.We have set out 4 rules for the twin shocks 1.no hydraulic clutch or brakes. 2. no jumbo forks 3. bikes to run with tubes 4. no converted monos

Hi Tam

Agree with your sentiments, I personally would allow air cooled mono's to ride on a no award basis, to discourage pot hunters.

Ross

[woody]

What are Jumbo forks? The last model SWM had 38mm Betor forks so if you mean 38mm diameter, that is a period twinshock dimension and you would ban a standard SWM with that rule.

Better to say no 38mm forks dating from post 1985 if you want to prohibit them. However, having ridden a few bikes with modern 38mm forks fitted they offer bugger all advantage as far as I'm concerned over a well set up pair of standard Marzocchis.

As far as defining a proper spec British Pre65 bike, by definition it should have no electronic ignition, Monobloc carb, steel rims, steel hubs, original forks with no modern internals, original yokes, no modern rear dampers, steel (or alloy?) mudguards, original footpegs, steel fuel tank, steel oil tank and weigh over 260lbs.

That's a pretty accurate Pre65 spec. Any deviation from the above puts it in a twinshock or modernised class.

You may have to concede to modern tyres but Bridgestone or Barum trail type could be used to mimic the performance level of 60s tyres.

Not being facetious with this but you asked the question, that's a genuine response.

Finally, what is the obsession with banning tubeless tyres on tubeless rims, even on twinshocks. There is a good reason they are used and that is because the tube type trials tyres on sale aren't too clever. The Michelin Radial is as effective as a Michelin Pilot in mud and you may as well leave your bike in the garage as fit one of those.

The IRC tube tyre is of dubious construction and inconsistent in its performance at best, some are ok and some aren't. They're prone to punctures, particularly compression if used hard, soft sidewalls that roll all over the place on rocks and cambers and the support wires can break through on the inside. The tubeless tyre is much stronger in construction, they are no better in terms of compound or grip, but they don't suffer the aforementioned problems. Unfortunately, they can't always be trusted to stay seated on a tubed rim fitted with a tube and may drop off. If they do - trial over.

For someone like me, who travels long distances to take part in trials all over the place, there is no way I'm going to spend hundreds of pounds on travel, accommodation, fuel, entry fees, bike prep. etc, to have my day ruined and all that time, effort and money wasted, due to problems with a tyre that a manufacturer can't be bothered to put right and seems to refuse to accept has a problem. They've been like this for 15 years and they've done nothing to correct it when all they have to do is make it the same construction as the tubeless.

So, given the doubt that a tubeless tyre will stay seated on a tubed rim if worked really hard in more demanding events and having suffered way too many punctures and roll around sidewalls, over the last 2 or 3 years I've fitted tubeless rims to my bikes as and when funds allowed. This is so that I can go and enjoy riding with peace of mind that I'm not going to have my day wrecked by a dodgy tyre.

The ACU have no rules that probhibit them in their series and if individual clubs start banning them I'll just turn my back on classic events and ride my twinshocks in modern events. It's the bikes I enjoy riding, as long as there are events to ride them in I'm happy - if they are all modern it's not a problem, I ride mainly modern events anyway.

I just don't see the problem. Most of the moaning about modified bikes is the appearance, understandably so. Well, a tubeless tyre is black and round and indistinguishable from a tubed type. You have to look hard to even notice a tubeless rim. Does it really matter if you can't 'push the valve in' or there aren't any security bolts visible.

A tubeless tyre is the only modern component that exactly resembles it's 60s counterpart, yet it's not accepted when modern billet machined parts that look nothing like readily are... It's just a tyre.

[tamdodds]

Thanks for the reply,the rules I put in the message were a shortened version,somebody coming along on a SWM with factory fitted 38mm forks would be more than welcome.We want to run trials with minimum rules,costs and cups and maximum fun.Just think, what if every body had the same type of tyres where would the advantage be ????