motomike Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 What are Jumbo forks? The last model SWM had 38mm Betor forks so if you mean 38mm diameter, that is a period twinshock dimension and you would ban a standard SWM with that rule. Better to say no 38mm forks dating from post 1985 if you want to prohibit them. However, having ridden a few bikes with modern 38mm forks fitted they offer bugger all advantage as far as I'm concerned over a well set up pair of standard Marzocchis. As far as defining a proper spec British Pre65 bike, by definition it should have no electronic ignition, Monobloc carb, steel rims, steel hubs, original forks with no modern internals, original yokes, no modern rear dampers, steel (or alloy?) mudguards, original footpegs, steel fuel tank, steel oil tank and weigh over 260lbs. That's a pretty accurate Pre65 spec. Any deviation from the above puts it in a twinshock or modernised class. You may have to concede to modern tyres but Bridgestone or Barum trail type could be used to mimic the performance level of 60s tyres. Not being facetious with this but you asked the question, that's a genuine response. Finally, what is the obsession with banning tubeless tyres on tubeless rims, even on twinshocks. There is a good reason they are used and that is because the tube type trials tyres on sale aren't too clever. The Michelin Radial is as effective as a Michelin Pilot in mud and you may as well leave your bike in the garage as fit one of those. The IRC tube tyre is of dubious construction and inconsistent in its performance at best, some are ok and some aren't. They're prone to punctures, particularly compression if used hard, soft sidewalls that roll all over the place on rocks and cambers and the support wires can break through on the inside. The tubeless tyre is much stronger in construction, they are no better in terms of compound or grip, but they don't suffer the aforementioned problems. Unfortunately, they can't always be trusted to stay seated on a tubed rim fitted with a tube and may drop off. If they do - trial over. For someone like me, who travels long distances to take part in trials all over the place, there is no way I'm going to spend hundreds of pounds on travel, accommodation, fuel, entry fees, bike prep. etc, to have my day ruined and all that time, effort and money wasted, due to problems with a tyre that a manufacturer can't be bothered to put right and seems to refuse to accept has a problem. They've been like this for 15 years and they've done nothing to correct it when all they have to do is make it the same construction as the tubeless. So, given the doubt that a tubeless tyre will stay seated on a tubed rim if worked really hard in more demanding events and having suffered way too many punctures and roll around sidewalls, over the last 2 or 3 years I've fitted tubeless rims to my bikes as and when funds allowed. This is so that I can go and enjoy riding with peace of mind that I'm not going to have my day wrecked by a dodgy tyre. The ACU have no rules that probhibit them in their series and if individual clubs start banning them I'll just turn my back on classic events and ride my twinshocks in modern events. It's the bikes I enjoy riding, as long as there are events to ride them in I'm happy - if they are all modern it's not a problem, I ride mainly modern events anyway. I just don't see the problem. Most of the moaning about modified bikes is the appearance, understandably so. Well, a tubeless tyre is black and round and indistinguishable from a tubed type. You have to look hard to even notice a tubeless rim. Does it really matter if you can't 'push the valve in' or there aren't any security bolts visible. A tubeless tyre is the only modern component that exactly resembles it's 60s counterpart, yet it's not accepted when modern billet machined parts that look nothing like readily are... It's just a tyre. Ref Woodys comments on the tyres, he has a point, Has anyone thought how long tyre manufactures will carry on making tubed tyres,for trials, compared to tubeless ,tubed production levels must be less, will they eventualy decide to discontinue making them ? maybe not now, but in a few years time . As for Charlie`s the arguments for lower priced bikes, Simple, get the air cooled mono class going, far better option than people sticking two shocks on them, but be warned if that class became established, you will see the cost of Yamaha TY monos go up ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greeves Posted February 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) We want to run trials with minimum rules,costs and cups and maximum fun. This is exactly what I think tamdodds. That is how most classic trials should be. Here in Spain they are really trying to "professionalize classic trials" (speaking ironically) wanting to make a small "WCTC" (for World Classic Trials Championship) with new, complicated and crooked both sportive and technical rules. Regulating everithing, even the number of cups a moto club must give per category in their trials. But oddly in my opinion not wanting to introduce non-stop in classic events. And what they at last are achieving is a bad atmosphere, a loose of interest and a huge ammount of mouning on everything. South Spain, Andalucia has recently finished with classic trials, as they have joined both modern and classic with no separate events. Eastern Spain; Valencia Community (with a big number of classic pilots) has no classic calendar at the moment, just 1 trial for the whole year and nobody wants to prepare classic trials. In North East Spain, Catalonia (Mecca of Spanish trials) they have acquired hard technical rules, and in their first classic trial of the calendar they had 3 entries in pre65 category and 2 in pre72... And the scenario is bad, very bad in my opinion as they are shooting in the wrong direction, as our classic trials will be much more complicated and expensive to arrange with this rules, and less opened for any kind of customers. Of course there can allways be special events for special bikes (more original, modern, tuned or whatever). Edited February 14, 2012 by Greeves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Thanks for the reply,the rules I put in the message were a shortened version,somebody coming along on a SWM with factory fitted 38mm forks would be more than welcome.We want to run trials with minimum rules,costs and cups and maximum fun.Just think, what if every body had the same type of tyres where would the advantage be ???? like your style Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon v8 Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 This whole question seems quite simply answered,(To me,being simple...) in as much as marking out trials that people WANT to ride,not filling it up with loads of rules etc.As for the tyres,again quite simple demand will dictate supply,if classic trials remains popularity or grows we will need more tyres.It only takes one person to draw up a spec for a tubed tyre,(Up to a high standard of design and quality) and get them made in China - Isnt that how most things we buy now are supplied ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosey Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) I think that you didn't ought to cap or limit anything. Let the nutters pay 10's of thousands for some fancy machined, polished and painted bikes that they could ride about as good as a properish pre-65 bike. Just set the sections out to suit the proper bikes.. if the 'other bikes' go clean then the riders can always go and find a modern trial to ride their 2012 model pre-65 in. Pre-65 and Twinshock is about keeping the old stuff going and enjoying it ........... isn't it? I've got to say logic says tubelss tyres are better... who wants to mess around with not as easy to get tube type tyres now? As for admiring the engineering I've not really seen any 'fantastic engineering', other than on proper modern stuff, I've seen attractivelly machined bits.... I can't really see what level of true 'engineering' has gone into them, other than being a bit oneoffish! As for professionalising classic trials... I know what you mean, but we can't even professionalise modern trials. If you have to professionalise it then you need paid officials, a real firm set of rules and full checking before an event. I'd expect most people to stay away from this type of event? Edited February 14, 2012 by Rosey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamdodds Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) The point about our 4 small rules is to keep costs down.One club member bought a TY250 last week for £500 ,he may need cables etc, so for £600 he is trialing - no need for carbon-fibre tanks,disc brakes,fancy rims,hand made frame or fancy forks. Just turn up and get some trialing done.Did these bikes work OK in the 70's and 80's ? It would appear so. In my first message there was no mention about tubeless tyres?? The main point is, do not let twin shock's get into the same mess as pre 65's. keep it simple . thanks.Tam Edited February 14, 2012 by tamdodds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 The point about our 4 small rules is to keep costs down.One club member bought a TY250 last week for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Tam, I'm not deriding what you're trying to do, definitely not. My reply was genuine. You mentioned 4 simple rules, one of which was no Jumbo forks, another was tyres to run with tubes. Jumbo forks was a bit loose in its definition, hence my comment. Tyres to run with tubes is also a bit loose but infers no tubeless. There seems to be a growing trend in outlawing tubeless tyres on tubeless rims which I can't honestly understand. You may consider tubeless with a tube in ok and I have done this myself, but not all tubed rims will support tubeless tyres, therefore that combination is not always possible. I've detailed previously why I've moved to tubeless on my bikes whenever possible, my BSA included. Believe me, if the tubed tyres performed as they should I wouldn't have bothered to incur an unecessary expense. However, tubeless also make it a lot easier to deal with punctures so that we can enjoy doing what we like best - riding - instead of wasting so much time with patches or fitting another tube in the middle of nowhere. There is a simple answer to the Pre65 'dilemma' if organisers want to do it. Taking a C15 as an example, if the bike doesn't look like the picture below and retain its original parts it goes in the specials class. As I said before, it's not hard to judge what is and what isn't... Personally I think the horse has long gone and it is too late to stop the modification of British bikes. Some do it for the enjoyment of it, some because they can, some in the misguided belief it will turn them overnight into a champion of the class. It will continue. However. there is nothing to stop individual clubs holding events for standard machines. Make it VERY clear in the regs that anything considered not standard at the organiser's discretion will go in a specials class. If people want to enter such a trial on their standard machines, they will. Too simple? Seems a logical enough concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motomike Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Personally I think the horse has long gone and it is too late to stop the modification of British bikes. Modifications to brit bikes has been going on as long as there has been bikes, GOV 132 is the classic example, back in the days when there was only ONE route for all. The only difference now is, the materials readily available , and the engineering ability of some people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon v8 Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Modifications to brit bikes has been going on as long as there has been bikes, GOV 132 is the classic example, back in the days when there was only ONE route for all. The only difference now is, the materials readily available , and the engineering ability of some people. And which GOV132 would this be ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Modifications to brit bikes has been going on as long as there has been bikes, GOV 132 is the classic example, back in the days when there was only ONE route for all. The only difference now is, the materials readily available , and the engineering ability of some people. Exactly, I wouldn't disagree with that. The question is 'why are the bikes modified in the first place?'. Because they were not very good. Backed up by the fact that everyone dropped them like hot bricks once the 'Spanish Three' arrived. I'll hazard a guess that Pre65 started up in the 70s because riders who were no longer competitive on contemporary machines still fancied a ride out on the bikes of yesteryear as a bit of nostalgia. I'm guessing, not stating as a fact, but all trials were single route back then, so it's possible that if they couldn't cope with the sections, thie older bikes in older style events were a solution. Fast forward to the 80s and a few more riders who started on British bikes in the 60s and who may no longer have enjoyed modern trials, move across to Pre65. Around 1984 the Pre65 Scottish was born. The problem now is that most of the riders have ridden much more modern and capable bikes and so starts the modernisation of the British bikes which must feel horribly antiquated by comparison. Add to that Sammy Miller is riding his further modified Ariel and away it goes, people need to modify their bikes to sta competitive. The rest is just natural evolution into what it has become today. I've said it before and been slated but I'll say it again. If modified bikes were banned I think you would see a huge reduction in the number of British bikes being used as not everyone wants to ride a standard bike. Some are just awful. I remember Rathmell being asked about riding a Greeves in the Pre65 Scottish and he said no way, they were crap then and they're crap now, why would I want to ride one of those'. I can understand people wanting to modify them. Times change and almost everyone has experience of riding bikes newer than the original British bikes. I imagine not many want the authentic experience of dodgy electrics, worn out or inefficient carburettors, suspension that doesn't suspend, inefficient and noisy exhausts, lethal footrests and probably the biggest issue - the weight. The modifications make the bikes easier to ride, more manageable and much more reliable. The Pre65 tag is just a label, a class name - does it matter what it is? They are still British bikes in essence but no longer to Pre65 specification. Again, does it matter? The one thing that really p****s me off about it is the hypocricy with the regs. The silhouette philosophy - you can use brand new replica parts, frames or billet components, as long as they resemble the original.... How many of the modern parts deemed acceptable resemble parts from before 1965? As for the silhouette, how do any of them resemble the original form? Now I don't have a problem with this as I own a BSA which is being modernised, but I really get wound up at regs that allow brand new parts to be used that look nothing like the original, but prohibit the use of cheap alternatives from broken up old twinshocks such as wheels, forks, hubs, yokes which could be obtained at a fraction of the cost. It's regs such as these, spawned mainly from the Scottish which are forcing people to spend thousands if they want a bike to compete at top level on. Such a bike could be achieved at a fraction of the cost with used parts. But you can't because they 'don't resemble the originals'. Well, unless you have seriously distorted vision, neither do the parts that are alllowed. The modified bikes aren't the problem. The idiotic rules that abound are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 What are Jumbo forks? The last model SWM had 38mm Betor forks so if you mean 38mm diameter, that is a period twinshock dimension and you would ban a standard SWM with that rule. Better to say no 38mm forks dating from post 1985 if you want to prohibit them. However, having ridden a few bikes with modern 38mm forks fitted they offer bugger all advantage as far as I'm concerned over a well set up pair of standard Marzocchis. Just thought i would add this pasted from Classic trials website. "To match the greatly improved rear suspension, we will be fitting modern 38mm forks, as while the stock Honda forks can be uprated, the internal damping system is relatively crude, and is not ideally suited to serious competition use. As well as better suspension the 38mm forks increase the rigidity of the front end, which means more precise steering. " Somebody thinks 38mm forks offer more than bugger all advantage over a well set up pair of standard Marzocchis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamdodds Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) While being scrutineered at the pre65 Kinlochleven a competitor with some trick Ariel made the comment "if Ariel had the knowledge we have they would have built their bikes like mine" , Alec Smith looked around the car park picked out a Monty 4RT and said "wrong that's what they would have built" Trialing is a discipline,it always has been,always will be,there are no "idiotic rules" just rules,trialing cannot exist with out them that's the way it is, like it or lump it.Hit a card it's a five,the card is not in the wrong place,it's where the Clark of the course put it,it's your job to miss it. Edited February 16, 2012 by tamdodds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosey Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) 38mm forks! Pieces made out of unobtanium! Buy this bike and you will ride like the stars! Maybe because somebody wants to make a few quid peddling such illusions to those that are easily parted with their money! I can't fault these blokes from peddling the stuff though ... there seem to enough quarry of that type that are easily parted with the money! Edited February 15, 2012 by Rosey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 38mm forks! Pieces made out of unobtanium! Buy this bike and you will ride like the stars! Maybe because somebody wants to make a few quid peddling such illusions to those that are easily parted with their money! I can't fault these blokes from peddling the stuff though ... there seem to enough quarry of that type that are easily parted with the money! exactly - there is some utter crap being peddled around as to what you need to do to a bike to make it 'competitive'. I wish I had been born with enough gall to peddle and benefit from it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.