greeves Posted February 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 I would really like to LEAVE APART THE SCOTTISH PRE65 and speak just about the 21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Hi, Dave I am very sorry for all the trouble your replies in this topic may have caused you. Thanks for you replies as you really say things that make me think about. I know for sure you are not against preparing bikes or against special parts manufacturers, far from that you (as me) defend the freedom of doing whatever you want to do with your own bike and the fredom of choosing the trials you ride. You are right as I started the topic with those main targets of discussion, both sportive and technical rules combined, and the changes both in bikes and sections, as I suspect, this evolution is leading our sport (classic trials) once again as in modern trials to a dead end road. You in the UK at least are lucky enough to have a big number of classic trials to choose were you ride. We in Spain have a very little number of classic trials to ride, and the decission of which sportive and technical rules we adopt will for sure mark the future of classic trials. Hi Javier. I dont know about you but i feel that a lot of the problems and differences of opinions, some expressed most vociferously and even worse, that have been stated in previous posts come from the fact that some people are trying to make their bikes something akin to a modern bike that they can ride in a trial where they feel they can have more sucess than riding a modern bike in a modern trial. Lets face it as woody has expressed most succintly in his previous posts P65 bikes are in their original state pretty awful things to ride and i feel most people would accept modifications that made them more desireable to ride. Now when it all goes wrong is when that amount of modification becomes modernisation. I have been trying to think of a way of describing what i mean and the nearest thing to me is this. Modify a P65 so that it's more like a 1970 Bultaco and it's about where it should be performance wise. Modernise it so it performs like a 240 Fantic pro or SWM jumbo and thats too far and it becomes something else. Remember thats only me trying to illustrate what i mean and i KNOW there will be hoards on here who will deliberately pick fault and nit pick but please read what i wrote NOT what you would like to read into it readers! I dont have any panacea to this. My only suggestion is that there should be a specials class and it should be left to the conscience of the rider to place their bike in whatever class is appropriate. They will have to live with the hollow victory that might be the outcome of running a super modernised bike out of class plus the other riders arent stupid they will know too. Thing is we all know where the line is with modification verses modernisation but it's nigh on impossible to put it into writing without getting your head shot off. This is a very good thread because it makes you think but as much as i agree with Javier that the modernisation of P65 bikes is taking us down a dead end road i just wish all the thought provoking that this thread has given had produced an answer that solved the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Hi Javier, it is ok, there is no problem really, it seems there has been some misunderstanding but everything is ok. I think there will never be agreement on Pre65 and that there are always going to be two groups. Those that like riding the bikes in original condition and those that like to modify. There is no reason that both cannot continue. Riders themselves will decide which group they want to belong to. I think I am right to say that in Spain, Pre65 class has only become more common in the last few years. In the UK there has been a Pre65 class since about 1975 and a lot has happened in the years that followed, so maybe if you know the history of it you can understand a bit more why the bikes have become so modified. In the 1970s, to me the 'golden age' of trials, the 'Spanish three' were the bikes to ride. Also there were Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki, followed by the first of SWM, Fantic. There were also a few British bikes still being produced, Greeves/Puch, Dalesman, Cotton Miarelli, Wassell, DMW, CCM. But if you were serious, Bultaco Ossa or Montesa were the bikes to have in the 70s. At some time during this period some Pre65 trials were organised, not on a national level, just small trials for a few enthusiasts. Maybe they were riders from the 50s and 60s era who were getting older and could no longer compete at the level needed to ride every week in competition (remember only one route then, no sections with 2, 3 or 4 routes) Trials had moved on and were more difficult as the performance of the Spanish bikes was far superior to the old British machines. Sections were harder than they were 10 years before. Perhaps they just wanted to continue riding for fun and decided to recreate the atmosphere of when they were younger and decided to ride again on British bikes that had been left abandoned in garages since the invasion of the Bultaco in 1965. Therefore the cut off date of 1965 was introduced in order to keep it British bikes only. These trials took place almost unheard of until the 1980s when the Scottish Pre65 was born. Originally the idea was to have ex-factory riders take part on the bikes they used to ride back in the 50s and 60s, the most famous being Sammy Miller on his Ariel. Within a few years the popularity of this event grew and more and more riders were entering, including some very good ex-factory riders such as Dave Thorpe. These riders were still very competitive and wanted only to win, just as they still do now... They look for every advantage possible and this is where the modifications to the bikes began, just like they had when they had factory bikes. At the same time as this - around 1988/89 modern trials were becoming very difficult and involved 100% trick riding. Fortunately a new ACU national series was introduced for classic bikes in about 1990 with 3 classes, twinshock, Pre65 unit and Pre65 pre-unit. This series had a big following and we always had over 100 riders at these trials, about 65% twinshock and 35% Pre65. So now there were two events for Pre65 riders to look forward to, the Pre65 Scottish and the national championship (called the Sebac series) The rider to beat in Pre65 was Dave Thorpe on his Cub. Even then there were rumours of modifications to the bike that made it perform better. Other riders joined the series and the competitive level meant they were all improving their bikes looking for an advantage over each other. In 1993/4 Mick Andrews began to ride and began to develop his James. Now we had some famous names and ex-champions and they all want to win. Therefore they continue to modify their bikes. Ordinary riders who manage to try some of these bikes like them very much as they are so much better than their standard bikes, so they begin to modify theirs as well. Rules are amended to try and prevent too much modification but some people are clever engineers and they hide new parts in old casings. You only have to watch bikes perform over rocks to see that they didn't have 1965 suspension... By now, it is still only about 1995. So now there are two prestigious titles to be won. The Scottish Pre65 and the national Sebac championship. The bikes continue to get modified and developed and the Scottish bring in their own rules to try and stop things moving too far. But by now it is too late as many bikes have now been modified. It is decided modifications to modernise the performance of the bikes are allowed but they must retain a period look, which meant that components fitted must resemble parts from 1965 or before. Slowly but surely the bikes get better and better and specialists begin manufacturing new parts to fit to the bikes so that it is not just the top riders that can have the modernised bikes, anyone can buy the parts to modify their own bikes. So from there, we are where we are today. A whole industry supplying parts to make your old bike perform better or even build a brand new one from new parts. It is what a lot of people want and the proof is that the specialists who make the parts are always very busy. You can't argue with that. Hope this explains why things have reached the point they have Javier. This is how Pre65 has evolved. It is evolution due to demand. It is clear though that unmodified bikes still have a following and I really can't see why there is a fuss about modifying the bikes. The choice is simple. Ride what you enjoy. There is no reason events cannot continue for both groups, modified or standard, either as a combined event with classes for both or seperate events. If some clubs really are going to get fussy about specials, modified or modernised bikes, the only answer is for anything that is not standard specification to go in a specials class. Modified is modified, whatever it is, if it isn't a pre65 part. No exceptions. What must be considered above all else though is that organised trials are a competition. Some are more serious than others, no doubt, and when you get to the standard of the Scottish or Manx classic there are some good riders who are in it to win it - nothing else. These riders want the best bike possible to give them the best advantage possible. Just as they did back in the old days, just as Sammy Miller did with GOV 132. It's where it all started. If they were all happy to ride standard unmodified bikes we'd still be riding British bikes now, the Bultaco invasion woould never have happened, would it. Edited February 20, 2012 by Woody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greeves Posted February 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) That is brilliant Dave. Hope you don´t mind I put it in Spanish and post it in Spain(of course linking it to TC), as it would be really nice that so many people here can understand a bit more about the UK´s pre (specially pre65) scenario. Something really missunderstood in Spain. Edited February 21, 2012 by Greeves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) The above post by Woody, i havent copied because it takes up too much space, is simply superb and says it all fantastic prose mate i salute you Perhaps it is time for a totally seperate Trial event to evolve ? a National series more along the lines of a trial of the early 60's with road work and sections more akin to climbs and hills like they rode in their day JUST for totally period machinery. You know the more i think about it the more it makes sense and would solve most if not all of the bickering about eligability. Edited February 21, 2012 by Old trials fanatic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greeves Posted February 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 I am extremely interested in knowing the opinion about if the text posted by Woody above can promote the views in favour of modifying trials bikes, or if in the other hand it can be considered as something neutral that simply describes some facts. It looks pretty neutral to me, but I can be influenced by my own opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huntmaster Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 An interesting discussion. Like any involving "rules" it's usually not about if there should be any but of course where to draw the line. On this side of the pond I could show up with a disc-braked, monoshock HT5 and never be turned away! Hardly "pre-65"... but of course a literal "showroom stock" enforcement of the rulebook where there are more classic bikes would make every "Millerized" Ariel out there completely ineligable. No such bike existed in any Ariel brochure anywhere! As many know, the stock HT that went out of production in 1958 (not 1964!) weighed over 100 lbs more then many GOV 132 clones...or about 2/3 the weight of a modern trials bike! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 I am extremely interested in knowing the opinion about if the text posted by Woody above can promote the views in favour of modifying trials bikes, or if in the other hand it can be considered as something neutral that simply describes some facts. It looks pretty neutral to me, but I can be influenced by my own opinion. Hi Javier. To me it's just neutral. A discription of how we arrived at where we are today. ALL forms of motor sport from F1 to Auto testing have rules and eligability criteria. Modifying machines is and always has been part of motor sport. In the UK a motor manufacturer, cant remember which, once used the slogan "racing improves the breed" basically since the very first competition machine it would have been modified and then modified again before the next competition. Because of this rules were invented so people had to think long and hard how to use the rules to their advantage or how to get round them and on it goes. The rules and the engineers always trying to thwart each other. It's just the way it is. It's human nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metisse Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 All this highlighted interest in PRE 65 mods, I had to chuckle, reading my newly arrived Classic dirt bike mag that one of the contridutors was toying with fitting a beta clutch, would nt have put that down in black and white....Mind you I guess he needs all the help he can get !!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie prescott Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 Hi Guy's. Dave, All I can say is thanks mate, Brilliant!! Respect!! Regards Charlie. :thumbup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 That is brilliant Dave. Hope you don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 All this highlighted interest in PRE 65 mods, I had to chuckle, reading my newly arrived Classic dirt bike mag that one of the contridutors was toying with fitting a beta clutch, would nt have put that down in black and white....Mind you I guess he needs all the help he can get !!!!! I know what you mean. It shows though, how modernised bikes have become the norm as mods like this are no longer hidden away. He's actually way behind the times with this one though. I know of bikes that had Beta clutches fitted over 10 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 Perhaps it is time for a totally seperate Trial event to evolve ? a National series more along the lines of a trial of the early 60's with road work and sections more akin to climbs and hills like they rode in their day JUST for totally period machinery. I thought this existed already. There was (still is?) a national championship called the Rickman British Bike championship that was to cater for the more standard bikes with sections that were more like those of long ago. It was British bikes only. I don't know if it is still run or whether it dwindled through lack of support. The events were mainly located from the Midlands to the South, not sure there were any held in the north. There are also a number of LDT events run, aren't they suitable for the older sandard spec bikes? And there are a few big rigids in the Miller series each year so if they can cope, standard springer bikes can surely handle the easy route. But where are they? Being 52 I never rode in the 60s so never experienced the sections of that era first hand. However, I have seen some of the news footage on you-tube and Pathe news and those I've seen didn't look that easy considering the bikes they were riding. Some riders were using the clutch on turns... One section featured quite a tight uphill turn on a grass camber and no-one cleaned it. I've no idea what events they were but they looked harder than the easy route on the Miller rounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie prescott Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 Hi Guy’s Silly Question but just curious, Who owns the Ti framed “Sprite” then? His he, or she, a top class trials rider that needs a bike this expensive? I know I am nosey, but would just like to know why the bike was built. Regards Charlie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 Hi Guy’s Silly Question but just curious, Who owns the Ti framed “Sprite” then? His he, or she, a top class trials rider that needs a bike this expensive? I know I am nosey, but would just like to know why the bike was built. Regards Charlie. Hi Charlie. "would just like to know why the bike was built" well probably like just about every other tricked up bike because he could!. nothing in the rules to stop you is there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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