Pre65 Class Bikes

[cvgmmartin]

In answer to Woody's comment about the old FB and the new old James, those bikes are from different planets.My first trials bike was the James version of the FB. It had 8 gears, 4 forward and 4 reverse and the engine was the heaviest piece of gutless crap ever put in a trials bike. If anyone has ridden one of these recently in the Scottish pre65 they have my utmost admiration. My next bike was a B40 which was a huge improvement over the James, that's how bad the James was. The big differences between the bikes is that the new James, although starting with an old set of crankcases (probably with Alpha bottom end), everything else has been significantly developed with modern know how. The barrel has probably been re-ported, the modern exhaust system no doubt improves the bottom end and electronic (with or without advance/retard) puts the icing on the cake. The FB would weigh around 250 lbs and I imagine the James with replica frame comes in under 200 lbs. I am not against modifying bikes but these two examples shouldn't be in the same class ,and a set of Ossa forks on the FB wouldn't make any difference, the engine is the achilles heel on this bike.

[danw43]

Surely the big draw to a trials event is the fun,i dont really see what difference a pre65 standard and a pre65 altered is really going to make surely it adds to the thrill of the day,and i think at the end of the day a lot of it is to do with riders skill.

Im new to this and only attended a few trials and there seemed to be all sorts of classes and different bikes all competing together,surely thats what its all about.

My first trial is on the 6th of may so i guess ill find out,but to me its all about the fub of it all,the preparation of the bike is personal preference,i like tinkering so i will,as long as i can compete.

[greeves]

Surely the big draw to a trials event is the fun,i dont really see what difference a pre65 standard and a pre65 altered is really going to make surely it adds to the thrill of the day,and i think at the end of the day a lot of it is to do with riders skill.

Im new to this and only attended a few trials and there seemed to be all sorts of classes and different bikes all competing together,surely thats what its all about.

My first trial is on the 6th of may so i guess ill find out,but to me its all about the fub of it all,the preparation of the bike is personal preference,i like tinkering so i will,as long as i can compete.

I am quite close to this opinion; I think trials need variety in all it´s aspects to stay healthy and to be a rich sport and not self-close on a single mode.

Trials need modern and classic trials; stop trials and non-stop trials; two stroke, four stroke and why not also electric bikes; original and tuned bikes. This of course includes trials designed to and for all of the bikes and to and for all level of pilots.

[vinnied]

Hi Javier, it is ok, there is no problem really, it seems there has been some misunderstanding but everything is ok.

I think there will never be agreement on Pre65 and that there are always going to be two groups. Those that like riding the bikes in original condition and those that like to modify. There is no reason that both cannot continue. Riders themselves will decide which group they want to belong to.

I think I am right to say that in Spain, Pre65 class has only become more common in the last few years. In the UK there has been a Pre65 class since about 1975 and a lot has happened in the years that followed, so maybe if you know the history of it you can understand a bit more why the bikes have become so modified.

In the 1970s, to me the 'golden age' of trials, the 'Spanish three' were the bikes to ride. Also there were Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki, followed by the first of SWM, Fantic. There were also a few British bikes still being produced, Greeves/Puch, Dalesman, Cotton Miarelli, Wassell, DMW, CCM. But if you were serious, Bultaco Ossa or Montesa were the bikes to have in the 70s.

At some time during this period some Pre65 trials were organised, not on a national level, just small trials for a few enthusiasts. Maybe they were riders from the 50s and 60s era who were getting older and could no longer compete at the level needed to ride every week in competition (remember only one route then, no sections with 2, 3 or 4 routes) Trials had moved on and were more difficult as the performance of the Spanish bikes was far superior to the old British machines. Sections were harder than they were 10 years before.

Perhaps they just wanted to continue riding for fun and decided to recreate the atmosphere of when they were younger and decided to ride again on British bikes that had been left abandoned in garages since the invasion of the Bultaco in 1965. Therefore the cut off date of 1965 was introduced in order to keep it British bikes only. These trials took place almost unheard of until the 1980s when the Scottish Pre65 was born. Originally the idea was to have ex-factory riders take part on the bikes they used to ride back in the 50s and 60s, the most famous being Sammy Miller on his Ariel.

Within a few years the popularity of this event grew and more and more riders were entering, including some very good ex-factory riders such as Dave Thorpe. These riders were still very competitive and wanted only to win, just as they still do now... They look for every advantage possible and this is where the modifications to the bikes began, just like they had when they had factory bikes. At the same time as this - around 1988/89 modern trials were becoming very difficult and involved 100% trick riding. Fortunately a new ACU national series was introduced for classic bikes in about 1990 with 3 classes, twinshock, Pre65 unit and Pre65 pre-unit. This series had a big following and we always had over 100 riders at these trials, about 65% twinshock and 35% Pre65.

So now there were two events for Pre65 riders to look forward to, the Pre65 Scottish and the national championship (called the Sebac series) The rider to beat in Pre65 was Dave Thorpe on his Cub. Even then there were rumours of modifications to the bike that made it perform better. Other riders joined the series and the competitive level meant they were all improving their bikes looking for an advantage over each other. In 1993/4 Mick Andrews began to ride and began to develop his James.

Now we had some famous names and ex-champions and they all want to win. Therefore they continue to modify their bikes. Ordinary riders who manage to try some of these bikes like them very much as they are so much better than their standard bikes, so they begin to modify theirs as well. Rules are amended to try and prevent too much modification but some people are clever engineers and they hide new parts in old casings. You only have to watch bikes perform over rocks to see that they didn't have 1965 suspension... By now, it is still only about 1995.

So now there are two prestigious titles to be won. The Scottish Pre65 and the national Sebac championship. The bikes continue to get modified and developed and the Scottish bring in their own rules to try and stop things moving too far. But by now it is too late as many bikes have now been modified. It is decided modifications to modernise the performance of the bikes are allowed but they must retain a period look, which meant that components fitted must resemble parts from 1965 or before. Slowly but surely the bikes get better and better and specialists begin manufacturing new parts to fit to the bikes so that it is not just the top riders that can have the modernised bikes, anyone can buy the parts to modify their own bikes.

So from there, we are where we are today. A whole industry supplying parts to make your old bike perform better or even build a brand new one from new parts. It is what a lot of people want and the proof is that the specialists who make the parts are always very busy. You can't argue with that.

Hope this explains why things have reached the point they have Javier. This is how Pre65 has evolved. It is evolution due to demand.

It is clear though that unmodified bikes still have a following and I really can't see why there is a fuss about modifying the bikes. The choice is simple. Ride what you enjoy. There is no reason events cannot continue for both groups, modified or standard, either as a combined event with classes for both or seperate events. If some clubs really are going to get fussy about specials, modified or modernised bikes, the only answer is for anything that is not standard specification to go in a specials class. Modified is modified, whatever it is, if it isn't a pre65 part. No exceptions.

What must be considered above all else though is that organised trials are a competition. Some are more serious than others, no doubt, and when you get to the standard of the Scottish or Manx classic there are some good riders who are in it to win it - nothing else. These riders want the best bike possible to give them the best advantage possible. Just as they did back in the old days, just as Sammy Miller did with GOV 132. It's where it all started. If they were all happy to ride standard unmodified bikes we'd still be riding British bikes now, the Bultaco invasion woould never have happened, would it.

Great Post Woody

[rallymadsam]

I also do a fair bit with rallying, and historic rallying is just the same as 'Pre 65's' from what I can see.

A MK2 Escort from 1975 is now worth about £3000 as a rotten rolling shell, to build a truly competitive top end historic spec. Escort you are talking upwards of £80,000 and I've even heard up to £120,000 to have one built by the top firms. The shells are heavily modified (over and above what was done in period in some cases) extensively repaired and renewed, all new parts bolted on, and essentially brand new cars with old registrations are rolling out of workshops everyday. There's loads of bickering and arguments about proof of use in period, homologation, trick bits, suspension etc etc, these cars are far better than they ever were!

But, if people can afford to do it, and scrutineering/rule making is so vague all the time, it won't stop, the evolution just continues and they keep getting better all the time.

[totalshell]

everyone just loves these new Escorts though. driven totally sideways especially on tarmac they are what the spectators want to see. the issue with p65 though is slightly different the bikes look essentially the same but if judging by a couple of weeks ago is a barometer, spectaor numbers are down dramatically and one of the core reasons for me is that the draw was for me seeing the superstars miller andrews lampkin etc on old bikes now the lads in lycra dont have that cache with the casual fan sure they ride very very well but for me waxed cotton trumps lycra every time

[westyfield]

quote:

"lads in lycra dont have that cache with the casual fan, sure they ride very, very well but for me waxed cotton trumps lycra every time"

Not that I follow it these days but It's the same situation in modern motocross.. how often do you see pages and pages of photographs in TMX of just another gaggle of multi-coloured, beak helmeted riders twisted sideways, usually in mid air, absolutely, indistinguishable from one another?

OK, one bike may be slightly orange or another tinged with green but again, unidentifiable amongst the hoards.. and if a bike doesn't wear the latest "graffix" its not deemed cool.. what's that all about?

Back in the day it seemed most riders could be identified by their own individuality.. take Vic Eastwood with his leg straight out ahead on bends or Wade with his distinctive helmet, Smith, with his neat, almost sitting stance..you could name lots of riders instantly back then and did they ever have to wear multi- coloured lycra to get noticed.. I doubt it!