jj65 Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Well, going on what I've seen, if Dan rode the whole trial like that, he is a worthy winner, "the best man on the day, won". Well done Dan Thorpe Edited February 21, 2012 by JJ65 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwig Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 In my opinion, Thorpy was the only clean from the video's I have seen. Sam, Myself and James all stopped therefore should have all been 5's. Having watched Sam stop in the bottom, on the ledge and handlebars resting on the banking and still get given a clean then me receive the mark I got, that's why i felt a bit hard done by. You can see from video that I rode the section completely no stop until I got into trouble in the gully. Really me trying to ride the section to the rules was actually my undoing. Maybe I should have stopped a bit more before the hard bit? Had Sam been marked properly I wouldn't have questioned being given a 5 because the observing would have been consistent. Please understand how frustrating it is for a rider to be clean all day and be that close to a win only for an observer to give you a mark which when you ask them what it was for, can't give you an answer. This isn't a dig at observers as I appreciate what they do. I certainly wouldn't want to do their job with the no stop rules. Alexz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shedracer Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Dan Thorpe's video was the best example of No stop, well done Dan. Arm chair Observers are all very well, but being there on the spot, being the observer at the event, is another thing. This is not in anyway, meant to be a criticism of Observers, you all do a sterlling job as far as I'm concerned and I am very grateful for you spare time you give up for us all. No its a question for the ACU, why is their not some sort of training course, or training video for observers? In this day and age, it's not rocket science, surely it wouldn't be difficult to make one and put it on YouTube, so all interested parties can view it and learn from it. It doesn't have to be a Hollywood type production, just a straight forward, simple video, showing scenarios, examples and how to mark them! I'd be happy to do it myself, with help from some good riders who would be happy to give their time, but maybe it should be done by the ACU. Over to you guys at the ACU, don't take ages discussing it and thinking about it, just do it. Edited February 21, 2012 by shedracer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smalley250 Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 Drop the no stop rule this actually highlights the flaws as many on here said it wasn't a five. I think the sections should be timed ie 30sec on these events, as it gets the pace going and a stop watch cheap and precise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) I was an observer at the Wallace on another hard section, and was as consistent as I could be all day. I run my own buisness have two teenager daughters a full time working wife and try to help at my local club. I have never been so stressed for ages as I was for those few hours. 3 or four riders were very up set at my decisions and the reasons are simple; 1) we have ridden stop allowed so long that people have forgotten a momentary pause is a five, if marked exactly to the letter 2) Each observer will choose his own standards (I know I felt obliged to explain that a nose wheelie would be a 5 if the front wheel stopped) and I felt a leaway should be give to hopping the front wheel in a forward direction (the section was tight). 3) each observer was able to choose his own "momentary pause" In my section Sam Connor was very much no stop as was Alexz, they were riding to "my rules" and may have got the benefit of the doubt on a step Sam more than wiggy but not a stop imho. Now here is the problem, at the BTC both riders and observers will have to have a demo rider do a demo section or there will be massive arguments as to whether riders actually stop or not. THIS MUST BE DONE or the BTC will descend into one big long argument and the BIG IDEA (no stop) will ruin the championship before its started. Edited February 21, 2012 by Nigel Dabster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 Would I observe again? Probably not. I also think that Sam James and Alexz were riding the section to what the observer was marking rather than the rules as I saw them earlier in the trial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smalley250 Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 Would I observe again? Probably not. I also think that Sam James and Alexz were riding the section to what the observer was marking rather than the rules as I saw them earlier in the trial. Would you observe if it was no stop again ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timp Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 These videos are an excellent display of why no-stop will fail at top level. It just shows that it's not the rules but the observers decision that is the problem. I want no-stop to work but it will obviously fail judging on all the various different views just on one section. The "stop for a one" rule would of sorted this section so easily. Let's face it, unless a mechanical system for scoring is implemented which takes observers out of the picture then we will be having these same arguments in 10 years time. Bring back "stop for a one". The best compromise that suited riders and observers for many years till the FIM decided to change back to stop allowed in world trials. A big mistake in my view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamjayzee Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 First of all, I wasn't there, so take my comments in that light. Secondly, seeing the vids, I would not have wanted to make a call on whether clean or five. However, I think we need to take care with this thread; it doesn't matter how many times we prefeace comments with "Look, I'm not criticizing the observer", that is exaclty how the poor chap that officiated on this section must see it. As with many other (sometimes highly professional) sports (think cricket), there is a degree of subjectivity. At the end of the day, an amateur who has volunteered has stood on the side of a hill in his own time to officiate over an AMATEUR sport. If he got it wrong,had a bias, fell asleep, was bribed etc, tough titty, Live with it. If we even infer that the guy did a bad job, and insist on training courses and what have you, very soon you will have no observers and then the whole stop/ no-stop argument will be all but redundant. These are the rules we have right now. To be honest, the observers are the most important commodity here. We all need to do all we can to ensure they have as easy a ride as possible. In the meantime, shall we try to keep these good folks out of the firing line? Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telecat Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 When is a Knee down a 5? At best it's a one unless you consider it to be a "catch" of the knee when riding. I agree all those rides could be clean under TST22B and also could be a five. Even Dan hesitates and I've seen some observers turn away instantly they see it. Like I said it's too easy to be inconsistent in a section let alone between observers at different sections. I refused a board this weekend at a No-Stop Trial and believe me I was biting my tongue at times watching sections. Oh and to those who observe on the front wheel moving the question is... was the "bike" moving. If it was and you five'd a rider you were wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyboxer Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 These videos are an excellent display of why no-stop will fail at top level. It just shows that it's not the rules but the observers decision that is the problem. I want no-stop to work but it will obviously fail judging on all the various different views just on one section. The "stop for a one" rule would of sorted this section so easily. Let's face it, unless a mechanical system for scoring is implemented which takes observers out of the picture then we will be having these same arguments in 10 years time. Bring back "stop for a one". The best compromise that suited riders and observers for many years till the FIM decided to change back to stop allowed in world trials. A big mistake in my view. It was never difficult to run no-stop 20-30 years ago, so why should it be different now? The reason is because the youngsters have never ridden it and have been encouraged to hop & bop, by their peers Thus sections have become tighter and more difficult and bike design has improved, so stop is the only way that you can get through a section To allow no stop to work, everyone has to change their mindset (section builders/observers/CofC's/riders etc) and IMHO Dan Thorpe was the only rider to ride that section correctly under the no stop rules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minder Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) Firstly, good effort motorcycle emptyness - great videos to keep us talking!!! Also good to hear such honesty from Wiggy. Interesting to hear him mention about Sams handlebars touching the floor - how many of us picked that up? If we cant do it watching the videos over and over how can the observer be expected to pick it up? I think on the whole, the observer did an OK job. Its one thing for us all to watch the videos replayed sat on our own and make the decisions sat in the comfort of our home, but its completely different to be out there doing it. In fact, who are we to criticise? It would have taken a lot of bottle to give Alexz marks especially with the crowd giving him applause. The fact that he spotted 2 little dabs that Alexz made with his left leg (better indicated in the second video) is either a coincidence or the best piece of observing Ive ever seen. Remember he only got to see it once, in real time. The people who say that Connor and Fry deserved a 5, because they had momentary paused - I wonder how many of you would have actually bothered to observe and would have actually given that decision. Observers are only human and they are not professionals. Dont forget how many controversial decisions professional referees make week in week out in the premier league and they have the help of 3 other professional assistants. Its a good idea to have videos as a teaching aid to observers and even training courses (can anyone really see the ACU doing this - have the T&E committee ever observed?) but it is still down to volunteers at the end of the day. One thing the nobody has mentioned is how much the riders try to exploit the observer. They are used to getting away with bending the rules (no matter which rules are in place) Alexz (and a good example of this is Ricky Wiggins) had plenty of opportunity to put his feet down to get out of trouble but he chose to hang on and therefore pushed his luck. If riders got 5d for this week in week out they would put their feet down a lot quicker!!! For those people who blame the rules, I have seen a lot worse on stop allowed. Imagine Alexz in the same situation but he could stop. He would have probably layed on the bank two or three times and taken much longer and ended up with the 0. Which would have been more skillful - this, or Thorpys ride? Dont forget this was the hardest section in the trial and every one of the riders made a genuine attempt at it and genuinely thought that they could make the ends cards. You cant say the same in stop allowed trials at this level. This is the major problem - section severity - not the rules. The no-stop rule increases the severity of the sections without the section being physically too difficult for the majority of the riders. Ive been to good trials that have been no-stop but I have also been to good trials that have been stop-allowed - its in the skill of the CofC. In my experience I have been to more bad trials that have been stop-allowed and lets face it, its not exciting to watch rider after rider balancing for ages. A time limit stops this but how many clubs can have an extra observer on each section with a stopwatch? (Men cant do 2 jobs at once FACT, women can (apparantly!)) Its got to be worth giving this rule change a go - hasnt it? At least then we can compare with fact rather than all these theories about what COULD POSSIBLY PROBABLY MAYBE happen. Edited February 21, 2012 by minder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 Thorpey got that right to the letter to the no stop rules, but it was as dull as ditch water to watch it. If that's the future of trials for the top boys then game over! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wherry Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 It's very difficult to decide in real time isn't it.. I watched all the vids last night on motorcyclemptyness1's YouTube channel and you could argue that nearly all the top boys paused momentarily at some point. Dan Thorpe certainly rode it for a clean, as did Shaun Fox. I agree with Johnny above, it seems to me that some riders haven't really changed their styles or attitudes much yet to cope with the no-stop rules but I suspect that they will have to in time if these rules keep going. From an observing point of view it seems clear that the new/old rules will have to be marked harshly and any pause given a 5, otherwise it's all down to the judgement of the observer - How long is a pause? Did I give him/her more time than the previous person? Stating the obvious, if you've stopped, however momentarily, you've stopped so a 5 is given. Sounds simple doesn't it but it's not when you're persuaded into taking a clipboard at the start, and everyone is looking at you at your section to see what you'll give. All observers deserve a medal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minder Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 Thorpey got that right to the letter to the no stop rules, but it was as dull as ditch water to watch it How can you say that? What more could he have done on that section - a triple backflip perhaps? Ironically that section is usually muddy and full of ditch water!!!!! Also Even Dan hesitates and I've seen some observers turn away instantly they see it. Where exactly does he hesitate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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