jordi Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 Yes and as a participation sport, the riders at what ever level need to be challenged. I know these guys want to be in a position where if they drop some marks there will be somewhere where they think they can get it back. It seems the whole trial rested on this one section so no wonder there was some angst with the riders when the observation wasn't deemed consistent. No, the whole trial did not really rest on this section as most (all) the riders that are being discussed were not eligable for the S3 round (other than James Fry) so perhaps the view should be that the trial was spot on for the riders it was aimed at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 Yes and as a participation sport, the riders at what ever level need to be challenged. I know these guys want to be in a position where if they drop some marks there will be somewhere where they think they can get it back. It seems the whole trial rested on this one section so no wonder there was some angst with the riders when the observation wasn't deemed consistent. Strangely i also hear the same comment from "experts", strange i never hear it from the other classes, that they "need" to be able to pull back sloppy dabs or even a five. One guy even stated he wouldnt be riding at our club "because the trials are too easy and i'm getting beaten by people who arent as good as i am" ??? Surely the "skill" is not to lose any more marks than you really have to? I wasnt there so i cant and wont comment specifically about this trial but you cant lay out a trial with just a handful of competitors out of say 120 in mind and to hell with the rest. As i said before the reason wiggy lost was he didnt have as good a ride on the day as someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ishy Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 Yes and as a participation sport, the riders at what ever level need to be challenged. I know these guys want to be in a position where if they drop some marks there will be somewhere where they think they can get it back. It seems the whole trial rested on this one section so no wonder there was some angst with the riders when the observation wasn't deemed consistent. I have seen Mr Bou with very low scores and the rest of the entry looked to have been riding a different event many times harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billycraig Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 Strangely i also hear the same comment from "experts", strange i never hear it from the other classes, that they "need" to be able to pull back sloppy dabs or even a five. One guy even stated he wouldnt be riding at our club "because the trials are too easy and i'm getting beaten by people who arent as good as i am" ??? Surely the "skill" is not to lose any more marks than you really have to? Thats not really a fair comment, I observed at a classic trial due to injury and got a load of abuse from 2 pre 65 riders for fiving them. One for stopping and one for going the wrong way. I won't repeat the comments I got but it was safe to say they thought I ruined their day and one complained that he had noway of winning anymore. Did I bother observing during my recent injury? No I didn't! No matter what level someone is their is always someone whose not going to be happy as its a competition and people tend to be competitive. I've seen experts, intermediates, novices and complete beginners throw their teddy out of the pram and too a degree they've paid their money so their within there rights to feel aggrieved. I've also watched riders argue and get away with stuff and thought I must be a mug to just always except the decision I'm given. Sadly until we get paid officials we are not within our rights to criticize unpaid helpers. I rode the trial on Sunday and suffered somewhat with observing that I wouldn't agree with at times, I took the view that the recent endless discussion of no stop had increased the pressure to observe no stop, so it felt a bit harsher than in previous years. Like many others I just tried to make the best of it and enjoyed my day as the wallace is one of my favorite trials of the year. Have been watching this post for a while and despite my biketrials background I have little interest in the debate as I like both rules as long as they suit the trial. What I don't like is the "them and us" split with people pointing the finger at "experts" etc, I feel it dangers our minority sport more than anything. We all like to ride our bikes and our current rules allow us to choose how we do so. Does it really cause offense to someone if someone else to enjoy a different style? Pick your trials, enjoy them, learn from them and most importantly thank the observers for their help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) I have seen Mr Bou with very low scores and the rest of the entry looked to have been riding a different event many times harder. Mr Bou is not of this world. He's an Alien of some kind. Nobody should be able to do what he does anyway.... this debate has been had many times with polarized support in both camps non-stop versus stop allowed. Considering this is just a 'hobby', people do seem to get ever so wound up about it. If you are going home after a trial with a major grump on thinking that observer gave me a 5 when he shouldn't have, it probably was a 5 so just take it on the chin and go home with the thought you are damn lucky to be able to enjoy the sport at all in the first place! Edited February 23, 2012 by AtomAnt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bilc0 Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 Thats not really a fair comment, I observed at a classic trial due to injury and got a load of abuse from 2 pre 65 riders for fiving them. One for stopping and one for going the wrong way. I won't repeat the comments I got but it was safe to say they thought I ruined What observers need to remember is theres ****ers in all walks of life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shedracer Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 Thats not really a fair comment, I observed at a classic trial due to injury and got a load of abuse from 2 pre 65 riders for fiving them. One for stopping and one for going the wrong way. I won't repeat the comments I got but it was safe to say they thought I ruined their day and one complained that he had noway of winning anymore. Did I bother observing during my recent injury? No I didn't! No matter what level someone is their is always someone whose not going to be happy as its a competition and people tend to be competitive. I've seen experts, intermediates, novices and complete beginners throw their teddy out of the pram and too a degree they've paid their money so their within there rights to feel aggrieved. I've also watched riders argue and get away with stuff and thought I must be a mug to just always except the decision I'm given. Sadly until we get paid officials we are not within our rights to criticize unpaid helpers. I rode the trial on Sunday and suffered somewhat with observing that I wouldn't agree with at times, I took the view that the recent endless discussion of no stop had increased the pressure to observe no stop, so it felt a bit harsher than in previous years. Like many others I just tried to make the best of it and enjoyed my day as the wallace is one of my favorite trials of the year. Have been watching this post for a while and despite my biketrials background I have little interest in the debate as I like both rules as long as they suit the trial. What I don't like is the "them and us" split with people pointing the finger at "experts" etc, I feel it dangers our minority sport more than anything. We all like to ride our bikes and our current rules allow us to choose how we do so. Does it really cause offense to someone if someone else to enjoy a different style? Pick your trials, enjoy them, learn from them and most importantly thank the observers for their help. anyway.... this debate has been had many times with polarized support in both camps non-stop versus stop allowed. Considering this is just a 'hobby', people do seem to get ever so wound up about it. If you are going home after a trial with a major grump on thinking that observer gave me a 5 when he shouldn't have, it probably was a 5 so just take it on the chin and go home with the thought you are damn lucky to be able to enjoy the sport at all in the first place! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwig Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 Its all very well cherry picking one section, what about the other 37. I watched the action at another section earlier in the event and saw about 35 rides of which the only no stop rides were by a superb john Crinson ride and Ross with a couple of moving flicks. I know S3 is supposed to be for clubmen but surely 30-35 riders in these events surely cannot be regarded as such. Ten riders scores were 10 or under with many finishing on under 20. What events are there now for the top lads? Winner of over 100 nationals is regarded as a clubman!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj65 Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) There is no them and us, experts, clubman, observer etc, etc, we're all in the same club, we all have a passion for the sport we enjoy. The problem is, people are competitive , some more so than others, so want to win, or beat a mate. It doesn't matter what rules we ride, the observer can be strict or lenient, what we all must do, is accept things will never be perfect, observers aren't robots, their humans, get distracted, make mistakes, etc, etc. as a rider, I've had marks given that I thought were wrong and a 5 is a hard penalty if you thought it was incorrect, but I have never questioned an observer over it, it's a bummer and I've just accepted it because, I know that he can see things that I can't, he can see if I've moved backwards, whereas I am fighting trying to keep moving forward and think I'm still moving forwards. When a rider drops down a slope and hops their rear around a tree, most I saw on Sunday that did it on a particular section, stopped, some did it with the front wheel still moving, but the majority of the riders didn't even bother to hop, they just rode with both wheels on the ground and moving forwards for a clean. Maybe the answer is not to use punch cards that the rider carries, just a board with the observer. Then no one gets angry, argues and rides off in a huff, the atmosphere is better at the end of the trial and the results are published at the end of the trial. I hear people moaning about no stop, it's boring, it takes away the skills we've learnt, no it isn't and no it hasn't, you just need to learn some new skills and combine the two. You can still hop, pivot and jump, you just have to keep moving FORWARD without STOPPING, please, because otherwise, don't be surprised if an observer gives you a 5 for stopping in a NO STOP trial. I find it quite hard when observing, to concentrate on observing, rather than watching the trial, I really like watching the riders as a spectator, but observing isn't that, observing is concentrating on the bike, has it stopped, moved back, what's their feet doing, are they using that tree to lean on, can those riders please move so I can see etc, etc. I not hard, but, it can be challenging and you don't want to give a wrong mark, but you also don't want to see riders taking the pee, (sometimes the section gets cleared like a main road by the riders feet, I sometimes feel like bring a shovel ;0) ) I also don't want to have an argument, it's my day off and I want to enjoy it, just like the riders do. I could be out riding my own bike in a club trial, but I feel and want to put something back into the sport I enjoy, I see Stuart and all our club friends working their nuts off to get this trial ready, every year, it takes an awfull lot of hours for the NBMCC to organise and prepare the Wallace and if you haven't got 36 observers, CoC, secretary etc, etc, there's not going to be a trial. So let's stop arguing about the rules and just all agree to disagree on everything, cos it ain't ever going to be perfect, it's an amature sport, just enjoy what you've got. Edited February 23, 2012 by JJ65 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bilc0 Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) I hear people moaning about no stop, it's boring, it takes away the skills we've learnt, no it isn't and no it hasn't, you just need to learn some new skills and combine the two. You can still hop, pivot and jump, you just have to keep moving FORWARD without STOPPING. You mean like what this guy in this video once did. I wonder if this is how the ACU and Importers would like to see it go in the BTC Edited February 23, 2012 by bilc0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 You mean like what this guy in this video once did. I wonder if this is how the ACU and Importers would like to see it go in the BTC Works for me. Surely you cant say THATS boring to watch? It's poetry in motion and all on a Bultaco Twinshock without 38mm forks or Maxton inserts etc etc etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motorcycleemptyness Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 There is already a national championship that caters for no stop on older bikes , the normandale traditional trials championship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 Crikey this thing will run for ever... one thing I notice is that Bernie Schrieber can still ride his old bikes today in competition with the same tecniques etc. and still whatever it is (30 odd years on) participate and enjoy...I can't imagine the modern tecniques being physically possible even for Toni Bou in 30 years time. Somebody said above that Toni Bou is an Alien ..different planet etc. yes but at the time so was Bernie Schrieber. We ccertainly cant lead the world by unilaterally stepping back in time equally we can't simply follow the Spanish down the road of ever more specialised trials which only a few can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyboxer Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 Bernie was simply awesome, I wonder if some of today's riders could take a drum braked, twinshock Bultaco and ride those sections like he did back then, in 2012 I'd like to see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gizza5 Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 The above line is Wiggy's exact words on his own FB page, so to me he's blaming the observer, not the rules. I think quoted correctly he said this dodgy observing cost me the wallace today, wonder how many times we'll be saying that this year. #nostopisbull**** So yes he is blaming the observing but also blaming the rules!! Let me explain how Wiggy Lost ''HE STOPPED'' don't blame the rules they are the rules and you choose to ride? Wiggy has got the ultimate NO STOP win on his CV that being the SSDT so I feel it is a bit like sour grapes!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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