Can Someone Please Explain How Wiggy Lost?

[smalley250]

Remove the clutch lever you apparently dont no longer need it for non stop

Stop watch with a buzzer cheap enough.

If that was the best come hardest section it was like paint drying to watch, is this the form of whats to come ?. Hopefully the Jack Wood will be a better watch as it seems to lend its self more to non stop sections.

[atomant]

How can you say that? What more could he have done on that section - a triple backflip perhaps?

I can say that because that's what it was. He rode the section before him better than anyone else complying to the rules but the section and the style is hardly inspiring to watch is it?

[flatslide]

These videos are an excellent display of why no-stop will fail at top level. It just shows that it's not the rules but the observers decision that is the problem.

I want no-stop to work but it will obviously fail judging on all the various different views just on one section.

The "stop for a one" rule would of sorted this section so easily.

Let's face it, unless a mechanical system for scoring is implemented which takes observers out of the picture then we will be having these same arguments in 10 years time.

Bring back "stop for a one". The best compromise that suited riders and observers for many years till the FIM decided to change back to stop allowed in world trials. A big mistake in my view.

Why would a stop for a one be any easier to mark, the contention here is did they stop or not isnt it? Tough for an observer to get it right every time, even if stopping is allowed its still quite often hard to really know if the rider went backwards or not at times. Even the paid professionals in other sports get it wrong at times. Looking at the videos, to me only Dan Thorpe really rode it non-stop, but if I was the observer I would have probably given them all the benefit of the doubt, thankfully I'm usually a rider. Personally I prefer non-stop rules partly because it suits my riding style but also means the riders get through the sections quicker. Its tough to cop what we might think is a wrong score but its much tougher being the observer.

[nigel dabster]

Would you observe if it was no stop again ?

I do think stop for a one or stop allowed would/is easier to observe, but on a tricky section no stop is very stressful you are making judgements all the time.

[nigel dabster]

Remove the clutch lever you apparently dont no longer need it for non stop

Stop watch with a buzzer cheap enough.

If that was the best come hardest section it was like paint drying to watch, is this the form of whats to come ?. Hopefully the Jack Wood will be a better watch as it seems to lend its self more to non stop sections.

valid point, no stop is straight forward when you have a stream to ride. It is so clear for all to see that dry conditions in vast trials areas in the south its difficult to mark out to take marks from the top lads as perfectly shown by the videos.

[perce]

If we're going to be hyper critical about observing, how many 5's can be seen on this footage? I picked this film totally at random & I've no idea who shot it. I know he ultimately 5's the section but Dabill has a certain 5 in my book at 40 seconds or so. Similar situations come up throughout the footage.

If Trials are easier Observer judgemnet calls become critical but then more people can ride the A route so it's catch 22. All riders can hope for is consistancy from Observers & that's regardless of the rules. Riders simply have to accept what the Observer does.

I'm lucky in that the two events that I'm involved with run on ground where it is easy to mark out No Stop Trials, the only Trial that I'm really interested in riding in is the same, I'm not convinced that everywhere has this luxury.

Edited February 21, 2012 by PERCE

[motorcycleemptyness]

Sorry ,but a Momentary pause on any section has to be a five , if you start showing leinience then where do you draw the line ? Stop for a nano-second , a second ? count to 3 ?

I don't care what rules we run to, as long as the rules are enforced ONE WAY , OR THE OTHER !

[shedracer]

First of all, I wasn't there, so take my comments in that light.

Secondly, seeing the vids, I would not have wanted to make a call on whether clean or five.

However, I think we need to take care with this thread; it doesn't matter how many times we prefeace comments with "Look, I'm not criticizing the observer", that is exaclty how the poor chap that officiated on this section must see it. As with many other (sometimes highly professional) sports (think cricket), there is a degree of subjectivity. At the end of the day, an amateur who has volunteered has stood on the side of a hill in his own time to officiate over an AMATEUR sport. If he got it wrong,had a bias, fell asleep, was bribed etc, tough titty, Live with it.

If we even infer that the guy did a bad job, and insist on training courses and what have you, very soon you will have no observers and then the whole stop/ no-stop argument will be all but redundant.

These are the rules we have right now. To be honest, the observers are the most important commodity here. We all need to do all we can to ensure they have as easy a ride as possible. In the meantime, shall we try to keep these good folks out of the firing line?

Graham

Graham, I totally agree with you. My suggestion about a training video, was not suggesting that the observer in question needed it (far from that, i think he did a good job) and I'm sorry if that's how it came across (my communication skills are not brilliant).

What I mean is, if their was such a training video, it would be easy for anybody who maybe observing at an event, to just go and watch it, so they maybe better prepared, brush up on something they may have forgot, or if new to observing, learn on what to look for. Surely this would be good for the sport and it might even gain more observers, as more people may feel better informed and more confident about doing it.

I have regularly observed at the Wallace, as I did this one and I have to say generally, the riders are very good. But some do get upset, which I can understand, they are trying to do their best, to get their best result (that's not meant to be aimed at Alexz personally, that's just a general observation). However, the observer is also trying to do their best.

Thanks to all that took part, but especially to the organisers, helpers, observers and COC, for all their hard work, well done NBMCC for another great event.

Edited February 21, 2012 by shedracer

[perce]

I have a solution - why not mark on overall style instead, like they do on strictly come dancing or dancing on ice. If you think the riders effort is good and he gets up the section its a 0, if he struggles and messes about but still makes it , give a 3. If he stops and has to drag the bike about its a 5 and if the rider is a right tosser and not dressed properly its a 10!

Cheers

I actually like this concept, it's sort of how it goes when you're out practicing with your mates, it's all a laugh & you accept their judgement as to how ***** your ride was. Yet let an Observer do this in a Trial & you're mortally offended, funny innit?

[old trials fanatic]

When is a Knee down a 5? At best it's a one unless you consider it to be a "catch" of the knee when riding. I agree all those rides could be clean under TST22B and also could be a five. Even Dan hesitates and I've seen some observers turn away instantly they see it. Like I said it's too easy to be inconsistent in a section let alone between observers at different sections. I refused a board this weekend at a No-Stop Trial and believe me I was biting my tongue at times watching sections. Oh and to those who observe on the front wheel moving the question is... was the "bike" moving. If it was and you five'd a rider you were wrong.

Just checked the ACU Handbook and indeed you are correct the knee down should be classed as a dab. "Footing: Footing will be considered to have occurred if any part of the rider

Edited February 21, 2012 by Old trials fanatic

[grahamjayzee]

I actually like this concept, it's sort of how it goes when you're out practicing with your mates, it's all a laugh & you accept their judgement as to how ***** your ride was. Yet let an Observer do this in a Trial & you're mortally offended, funny innit?

Now we're getting somewhere.

How about you fail a section and get a 5, BUT you can claw back some points depending on how spectacular the fail was. So a simple stop remains a five, but the full on handlebar handstand/ faceplant gets 3 of them back? Damaged clothing and unintentional personal exposure that has to be endured for the remainder of the trial and you get your clean.

That answers the 'boring to watch' question, and riders then have the choice: Go for the clean, take a tactical dab, or go for the full on 'You've been framed' 5/0.

I should run the ACU, me...

[steveo]

Funny how we all can see things differently... my first time view of Alex's rear wheel slip to lay him on the bank, I gave him a 3 for the knee -leg supporting slide on the bank with his foot momentarily dislodged from the peg, similar as our rule states one foot down and sliding that foot is deemed footing more than twice.

Then looking at it a few more times the observers call of a 2 could be an excellent call if the exit had of been well executed. That all went out the window with the stop at the the end with a definite 5.

[nigel dabster]

Funny how we all can see things differently... my first time view of Alex's rear wheel slip to lay him on the bank, I gave him a 3 for the knee -leg supporting slide on the bank with his foot momentarily dislodged from the peg, similar as our rule states one foot down and sliding that foot is deemed footing more than twice.

Then looking at it a few more times the observers call of a 2 could be an excellent call if the exit had of been well executed. That all went out the window with the stop at the the end with a definite 5.

But then if Alexz's was a five so was connor and Fry?

Then to be uber strict dan at 25secs stops for a nano too?

[phb]

Just checked the ACU Handbook and indeed you are correct the knee down should be classed as a dab. "Footing: Footing will be considered to have occurred if any part of the riders body or any part of the machine, (with the exception of the tyres or the sump shield) touches the ground " I was wrong on that but he did still 5 at the top of the section and the only true cleans were Dan Thorpe and Shaun Fox from the videos i have seen on here.

thats what's so crazy about the rules, your handle bar can touch the ground which basically means you have fallen of but its only a 1 mark (and by touching the ground i dont mean against a rock face)as long as your hand is still on the handle bar, in my eyes if your handle bar is on the ground it should be a 5

Edited February 21, 2012 by PHB

[chewy]

Seems to me that generally Woody has a handle on what is at the root of these problems. Riders make choices regarding how they are going to tackle a particular section or obstacle. The trial is won by the rider who loses the least number of marks. There are many "variables" for riders to consider when making their assement of how to tackle a section.... no stop includes more of these less tangible variables than stop allowed. It is a different game or sport and both the riders and observers need to be more aware of each others abilities.

I should say that whilst I'm not a no stop die hard ......it's a very British "thing" to be different to the rest of the world,... I don't see how we can lead from behind on this matter.

However no stop rules do require riders to use more brain and less balance, they have worked for over a hundred years and provide generally a more inclusive days sport for the majority of abilities. It sounds like this inclusivness reduced the result to one section being the decider.

As an old git I remember final result frequently being decided by a special test; then it was usually a dead engine start ,ride as fast as you could around ( lets say a section) and stop abreast the start /finish line..the stopwatch or marks lost in the effort always provided a result and it was fun to do.