telecat Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Further to my observation that many observers do not know the rules here's one that drives many riders mad. The ruling on flags isn't "touching" or even Pushing a flag. it's h) The rider is held responsible for displacing a marker or support in an observed section whereby the observer considers it necessary to reinstate the flag /marker prior to the passage of the next rider The displacing of a marking not relating to the competitor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 (edited) Further to my observation that many observers do not know the rules here's one that drives many riders mad. The ruling on flags isn't "touching" or even Pushing a flag. it's h) The rider is held responsible for displacing a marker or support in an observed section whereby the observer considers it necessary to reinstate the flag /marker prior to the passage of the next rider The displacing of a marking not relating to the competitor Edited February 27, 2012 by Old trials fanatic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 fair enough, only the COC or his deputy...the observer can decide what constitutes misplaced...imagine if it were otherwise!!!!!! X no riders ===X no of opinions. good to bring up these details though. My favourite is the helpfull rider who points out it's been misplaced and promptly misplaces it even more in the act of replacing it (all in the cause of of gallantry)..te he. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdc Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 I think the post would have been better named "Riders please note" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telecat Posted February 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 I KNOW you are going to have a go at ME as usual but i am only commenting on your post because the same instance croped up yesterday. "They HAVE to remove it to get a penalty." NO the wording as you posted states clearly reinstate and later displacing. Both instances mean that the flag in question is not in the stance or position that it was before anybody rode the section and the flag therefore needs to be REINSTATED i.e. returned to it's original position or attitude or in the case of DISPLACED to be returned to it's original position and attitude to return the section peramiters to as they were prior to the last riders passage through the section. I agree that "touching" as long at the flag doesnt need REINSTATING or has been DISPLACED by the touching is not a penalty but running over a flag may not REMOVE it but it will still need REINSTATING so WOULD definately incur a penalty. So by definition "They HAVE to remove it to get a penalty." is not correct. As for the last bit in your posting i have never liked that either but feel as a CoC i should try whenever possible to ensure that flags dont appear where they will obviously be run over or accidentally displaced which i try to do whenever possible as i know as a rider i pees me off too. This rule however has been there for at least a couple of years. You didn't really come up to be honest and do remember that if the Wheels run over or the rider flattens the flag than that can be deemed to be "Crossing the tape or marker". The Problems occur when a rider "brushes" a flag and a five is given without the observer having to do anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 You didn't really come up to be honest and do remember that if the Wheels run over or the rider flattens the flag than that can be deemed to be "Crossing the tape or marker". The Problems occur when a rider "brushes" a flag and a five is given without the observer having to do anything. "You didn't really come up to be honest" ? dont get you. What i said was it croped up yesterday. It happened at our trial and as CoC i had to make a decision and back the observers decision on the spot which i did. I agree "brushing the flag and a five is given without the observer having to do anything." Is an incorrect call. Also agree with chewy that riders "helpfully" pointing out what they think they saw in a loud voice to the observer "did you see that observer he knocked that flag or did you see that he had a dab" and sometimes displacing a flag or replacing it 2ft further off line isnt right either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gizza5 Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 If it ain't TSR22A or TSR22B or did Wiggy get a 5,2 or clean then lets dig deeper and screw it up even more? I thought I went out on a Sunday to have some fun and ride with my mates the same as the observers, hell at this rate you won't get any volunteers (which already is hard enough) Chill out guys it won't make any difference come Monday morning!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phb Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 If it ain't TSR22A or TSR22B or did Wiggy get a 5,2 or clean then lets dig deeper and screw it up even more? I thought I went out on a Sunday to have some fun and ride with my mates the same as the observers, hell at this rate you won't get any volunteers (which already is hard enough) Chill out guys it won't make any difference come Monday morning!!! it's hard enough to get willing volunteers as it is, never mind keep going on about do they know the rules etc, etc for the vast majority of people its all about having a good laugh with your mates and like minded people, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telecat Posted February 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 "You didn't really come up to be honest" ? don't get you. What I said was it cropped up yesterday. It happened at our trial and as CoC I had to make a decision and back the observers decision on the spot which i did. I agree "brushing the flag and a five is given without the observer having to do anything." Is an incorrect call. Also agree with chewy that riders "helpfully" pointing out what they think they saw in a loud voice to the observer "did you see that observer he knocked that flag or did you see that he had a dab" and sometimes displacing a flag or replacing it 2ft further off line isnt right either. And in this case you and the observer were wrong!!! If the Marker flag does not need to be moved back or replaced then no mark is picked up by the rider. Check your ACU Handbook. I Cut and pasted the rule from the Online PDF of the Handbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 And in this case you and the observer were wrong!!! If the Marker flag does not need to be moved back or replaced then no mark is picked up by the rider. Check your ACU Handbook. I Cut and pasted the rule from the Online PDF of the Handbook. So the fact that the observer had to walk into the section to stand the flag back up again after the rider went through means according to you that he didnt reset it, even though he did have to pick it up out of the mud and stick it back in so what would you call sticking the flag back in because it had been displaced then again if i had said displaced in your book that would also be wrong because i said it forgot that, and that i should have overuled his decision to five the rider as he thought the rule book said if he had to reset it it's a five. The observer asked me for clarification and i gave it. I know in your book telecat everything i say do or think is always ipsofacto WRONG so lets assume somebody other than me had been CoC and backed the observer reseting the flag and giving a five because of it would they have been WRONG or is it just because i said it? Just wondering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monty_jon Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 And in this case you and the observer were wrong!!! If the Marker flag does not need to be moved back or replaced then no mark is picked up by the rider. Check your ACU Handbook. I Cut and pasted the rule from the Online PDF of the Handbook. Perhaps you could also supply some better trained observers? I helped out a trial recently and had to observe two sections at the same time due to riders not wanting to help! I also had a angry father demanding to know why I gave his son a five, and called me an idiot! (Oh and his son fell off, but according to his father he had a foot each side of the bike?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Perhaps you could also supply some better trained observers? I helped out a trial recently and had to observe two sections at the same time due to riders not wanting to help! I also had a angry father demanding to know why I gave his son a five, and called me an idiot! (Oh and his son fell off, but according to his father he had a foot each side of the bike?) Whether your decision was right or wrong, calling an Observer an idiot is unacceptable, the rider could justifiably have been excluded from the event for this under TSR27. I know people who would have handed him the board and walked away and may well have smacked him in the mouth for good measure too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monty_jon Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Whether your decision was right or wrong, calling an Observer an idiot is unacceptable, the rider could justifiably have been excluded from the event for this under TSR27. I know people who would have handed him the board and walked away and may well have smacked him in the mouth for good measure too. I must say in the kids defence, he was embarrassed by his fathers remarks Having started many years ago in schoolboy moto-x, sadly I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totalshell Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 do you know in 20yrs i ve never seen a mad rider. the rule on flags as evidenced above is crystal clear you move it your penalised, sure you can touch it but cause it to be re positioned and your bang to rights.. never seen anyone get mad over it we all know when riding if we ve ridden a section properly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telecat Posted February 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 So the fact that the observer had to walk into the section to stand the flag back up again after the rider went through means according to you that he didnt reset it, even though he did have to pick it up out of the mud and stick it back in so what would you call sticking the flag back in because it had been displaced then again if i had said displaced in your book that would also be wrong because i said it forgot that, and that i should have overuled his decision to five the rider as he thought the rule book said if he had to reset it it's a five. The observer asked me for clarification and i gave it. I know in your book telecat everything i say do or think is always ipsofacto WRONG so lets assume somebody other than me had been CoC and backed the observer reseting the flag and giving a five because of it would they have been WRONG or is it just because i said it? Just wondering Okay so now you change the circumstances . Yes IF the observer HAD to put the flag back up then yes that is a five. If you insist on keeping details to yourself then I will not bother trying to second guess you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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