hrcmonty Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 Lets see what people think, Your an observer so place what you think the mark is you would give to the following - Little Jonny brushes a flag with his foot, the flag has gone from perfectly upright, to now a slight lean. Leaning away from the section. = Big Mick is bouncing his front end around and flattens one of the other routes flags. = Nobby is riding the section, his tyre is heading out of the section, but he manages to stop and flick the front end around, in doing this he knocks the flag, of which flattens but then bounces back up. It dosen't bounce back up perfectly, but enough to not worry the observer getting up to reset it perfectly. = These are just some silly scenarios i've thought of. But if anyone has any real live times where the call to give someone was a penality or not, get it put on this thread, and lets see what people would do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telecat Posted February 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) 1St Scenario No mark given. 2nd 5 "Out of Course". 3rd 5 "Out of course". Edited February 28, 2012 by Telecat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrcmonty Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 Intresting you put 2+3 as 'Out of Course. 2 never mentions anything about going out of course, just that he flattened the other courses flag. So this being the error or not depending who is observing. 3 mentions nearly going out of course, but he saves it and pulls the front end round, but the point is the flag is flattened but bounces back, so what would you mark for that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Lets see what people think, Your an observer so place what you think the mark is you would give to the following - Little Jonny brushes a flag with his foot, the flag has gone from perfectly upright, to now a slight lean. Leaning away from the section. = Big Mick is bouncing his front end around and flattens one of the other routes flags. = Nobby is riding the section, his tyre is heading out of the section, but he manages to stop and flick the front end around, in doing this he knocks the flag, of which flattens but then bounces back up. It dosen't bounce back up perfectly, but enough to not worry the observer getting up to reset it perfectly. = These are just some silly scenarios i've thought of. But if anyone has any real live times where the call to give someone was a penality or not, get it put on this thread, and lets see what people would do. 1. Difficult. What matters here is consistency i.e. you do the same to every rider however the flag is now already half way to needing to be reset so is it fair not to reset it because the next guy may do just the same as little Jonny but because the flag is already half way there it will then need reseting. OK i know this is not in the rule book but i would ask the next guy who walks the section to just stand the flag up for me. Little Jonny receives no penalty for brushing the flag and the next guy get to attempt the section as it should be. Not perfect i know but it's only a sport after all not life or death. 2. 5 he's caused a flag to need to be reset doesnt matter if it's on his route or not i'm assuming it's in the same section just anouther route? Thats the rule as i read it. 3. No penalty for the flag as the observer feels the flag doesnt need reseting nor that it might disadvantage the next rider by being disturbed too much. Again i know not to the letter of the rules but as long as consistency is applied that is how i would mark it. Certain types of flags on springy wire can deflect quite considerably due to the wind at times and riders have to contend with that also so there must always be a certain amount of "observer discretion" and "common sense" applied but overall consistency is the key. Hope my opinion if not to the letter of the rule book is not too contentious? Edited February 28, 2012 by Old trials fanatic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phb Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 1St Scenario No mark given. 2nd 5 "Out of Course". 3rd 5 "Out of course". 1st one i agree with 2nd one would be no penalty as its a different routes marker which could be in the same route as a deviation , 3rd no penalty as he didnt actually go out of the course and didnt disloged the marker he only bent it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrcmonty Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 Intresting, how from 3 little scenarios we have 3 different ideas of scoring. Old Trials Fanatic, i fully agree with all your answers, this is too how i would have marked it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phb Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 Checked rule book last night and yes Q2 is a five, My mistake, but thats why we have a book, so that we can check, but a few years ago when observing at world round we were told that if a rider removed another route's marker,then that was not a 5 , it was only a 5 if it was there route marker, so I can fully understand why people get confused with the rules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telecat Posted February 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 As an explanation I would mark Q3 as a five as the rider is pulling the wheel "over" the flag. Hence they are outside the course. The Other courses Flag is debatable as I would not five a rider when a flag for another course lies between their flags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phb Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 when observing isn't the rule that when the front wheel spindle enters the section you start observing and like wise at the end you only have to get the front spindle passed the end cards so how do you judge correctly that the spindle has passed the flag when pulling the wheel over ? it could be that the very front of the tyre has caught the flag, so as long as its not been dislodged its not a 5. and as for Q2 (The other course flag) the rules are if you dislodge another course's marker its a 5, so Telecat which rules do you observe to your own or the ACU, as it seems like you use both Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telecat Posted March 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 (edited) when observing isn't the rule that when the front wheel spindle enters the section you start observing and like wise at the end you only have to get the front spindle passed the end cards so how do you judge correctly that the spindle has passed the flag when pulling the wheel over ? it could be that the very front of the tyre has caught the flag, so as long as its not been dislodged its not a 5. and as for Q2 (The other course flag) the rules are if you dislodge another course's marker its a 5, so Telecat which rules do you observe to your own or the ACU, as it seems like you use both Let's say you use Red/Blue for the Hard Course and Yellow/White for the Clubmen. If the Yellow is halfway between the Red and the Green would you penalise the Hard Course rider if they "Dislodge" the Yellow? And Yes I have seen a course set out like that several times. Edited March 1, 2012 by Telecat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phb Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 Let's say you use Red/Blue for the Hard Course and Yellow/White for the Clubmen. If the Yellow is halfway between the Red and the Green would you penalise the Hard Course rider if they "Dislodge" the Yellow? And Yes I have seen a course set out like that several times. No I wouldn't but it's in the Rule's that its a 5 so which rule book are you using , as you quite rightly said that many observers dont know the rules, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 Let's say you use Red/Blue for the Hard Course and Yellow/White for the Clubmen. If the Yellow is halfway between the Red and the Green would you penalise the Hard Course rider if they "Dislodge" the Yellow? And Yes I have seen a course set out like that several times. Yes, it is a five. I had the very same thing recently. I knocked out a peg from the easy route (which was actually not even in my way) with my foot and was given a five. I didn't argue but did feel the descision was wrong, upon checking the rules it was the correct call. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 when observing isn't the rule that when the front wheel spindle enters the section you start observing and like wise at the end you only have to get the front spindle passed the end cards so how do you judge correctly that the spindle has passed the flag when pulling the wheel over ? it could be that the very front of the tyre has caught the flag, so as long as its not been dislodged its not a 5. and as for Q2 (The other course flag) the rules are if you dislodge another course's marker its a 5, so Telecat which rules do you observe to your own or the ACU, as it seems like you use both Not dissagreeing with anything you say but the rule with ACU "front spindle in front spindle out" doesnt apply with AMCA events which is "front spindle in rear spindle out" and it's amazing how many riders dont know that one either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmseven Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 Nobby is riding the section, his tyre is heading out of the section, but he manages to stop and flick the front end around, in doing this he knocks the flag, of which flattens but then bounces back up. It dosen't bounce back up perfectly, but enough to not worry the observer getting up to reset it perfectly. = Is this NO STOP because it quite clearly states Nobby STOPS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrb505 Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 Lets see what people think, Your an observer so place what you think the mark is you would give to the following - Little Jonny brushes a flag with his foot, the flag has gone from perfectly upright, to now a slight lean. Leaning away from the section. = Big Mick is bouncing his front end around and flattens one of the other routes flags. = Nobby is riding the section, his tyre is heading out of the section, but he manages to stop and flick the front end around, in doing this he knocks the flag, of which flattens but then bounces back up. It dosen't bounce back up perfectly, but enough to not worry the observer getting up to reset it perfectly. = These are just some silly scenarios i've thought of. But if anyone has any real live times where the call to give someone was a penality or not, get it put on this thread, and lets see what people would do. I guess its a club trial 1 Little Johny give the kid a break no penalty (sounds like it should be no penalty even if it wasn't Little Johny) 2 Big Mick probably rides just for fun and maybe a beer afterwards no penalty 3 Nobby takes his riding seriously (a stop and flick) 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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