Reading Between The Lines

[rosey]

Funniest thing I ever heard was when they created the 'Clubmans Championship'... Virtually every club has one of those, so why have a national one!

When you look at any championship there are sometimes people who win it and it makes you wonder, but they meet the criteria set by the ACU, so thats OK. I seem to recall Braybrook winning the clubmans championship and he met the eligibility criteria!

I guess people have different ideas for what the BTC is. But at the end of the series there will be a winner and they'll be the champ....and all the sub level championship classes are just that!... They are all closely fought and tough to win, but there's only one proper British Champ. I'd hope that vitually everyone understands we will never get back to one route trials regardless of the rules.

I like the no-stop idea and think that its good that the ACU have gone with it

OK I still prefer the REAL stop allowed rules, where stopping with the foot down was 5 and rolling back was allowed, but we've seen that they had to have section time limits to speed things on.

Anyway, I'd expect the same guys to be up at the top stop allowed or not.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Rosey

[telecat]

As is crossing the line of travel etc. A good CofC makes sure it is not necessary but I have seen several example where you had to do so in order to complete a section.

The Outcome of this is that the "Championship" riders are now competing with the Expert A's for the Expert A Class. At a point where clubs now have three routes to satisfy their Experts, Clubman and those who want to still ride challenging sections without taking on the "oh my gawd" ones so they get MORE riders, The ACU take it the other way in the BTC. I do not see an increase in riders so far. I do not think the riders are happy and I do not see how this increases bike sales which is why the IMPORTERS pressured the ACU in to this retrograde step. I also would like to know why The ACU reps at these Trials have not issued warnings to the clubs regarding the courses. I have been to these Trials and most seem to be designed to take riders off the bikes and yet we hear of no reprimands to the clubs responsible. THAT puts riders off riding these Trials.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Telecat

[gizza5]

surely no stop and a practise lap is daft?

Hey they are practising carrying the Olympic Torch, now I am no expert but that ain't rocket science?

One reason for the practise lap was to help the Clerk of the Course if alterations were needed, maybe that is more relevant with the No Stop rules if the section is too easy then it can be stiffened up?

We still had a winner, a second, athird and so on so can't really see what the problem was bar lack of concerntration.............some more than others!

[baldilocks]

Actually the practice lap can really help with the consistency of the trial and is only fair if its based on slippy northern streams. If your the first man away on the championship course then your riding a different trial to the guy at the back of the field.

this is the problem with the outodoors, Bou and Raga are riding most sections first and still outside the top 5 the gap is huge. I dont beleive the current riders in the WTC outside the top 5 can close the gap to Bou, it needs somebody younger than Bou who is still probably in 125's or has only been in juniors a year or so. Not seeking cause any offence in saying that but I think its linked to this topic.

I can t justify the BTC being so hard that only 3 riders can realistically compete for the win if its not getting them near the podium on the world scene. Its not as if the BTC hasnt been that hard for a while so if thats the way to create the next british world champ what else is wrong ??

As others have said we need to decide what is the purpose of the BTC, what are we as a sport trying to achieve ? Perhaps the acu have and its their role along with other interested parties to do that.

As a concept finding the best rider across the range of terrain in the uk seems a reasonable idea ?? From the round slippy rocks of Scotland to the mud of the South and everything in between !

Edited April 21, 2012 by Baldilocks

[john collins]

I certainly did not have any intention of getting involved in this debate, particularly after just one round has been held. Anyone with an iota of common sense should know that it is far too early to make judgements as there sure as hell will be lessons to be learned by the end of the year, and then , people will have a more valid opinion to express

I wrote a lengthy piece about the whole scenario of the 2012 Championship some weeks ago, it is evident that many did not read it, as they now take a delight in expounding views which I clearly covered and explained, and that tends me wonder if it is worth even trying to take the time to expand further on the topic.

However, like Big John I feel I should, not to try to convert people to the philosophy of No-Stop, or to condemn it, nor equally to defend it. I said some time ago that I really do not know, and I also said that none of you do either. Some of you think you know, pretend you know , or are just to plain ignorant and self obsessed to give the subject realistic debate.

What in annoying me most , are people who are jumping on a bandwagon . If you are not involved in the actual organisation of an event or riding in such events just how valid are some of these opinions?

I keep seeing words like “ what do we want from our BC” ? Or “ it should be a showcase etc” – all fine and fair and no arguments, but have the people making such comments, and more importantly a wider majority actually been taking that much interest or attending? Everyone needs to answer for oneself.

Did the BC rounds of say 2010 and 2011 actually help the top riders in their in their quest? Have you asked them? How enthusiastic have they been for series for last few years? How enthusiastic have series sponsors been about coverage, comments? Has our mailbox about past series ( and this one for that matter) had more praise or more complaints about series?

There is nothing wrong with admiring top riders , nothing wrong with hero worship or sympathy with their cause. What cannot be correct however is to set ones self up as an expert on all things British or FIM Championship because you have a particular empathy with a particular rider. Top riders can , do and have, all had their say on this matter. Absolutely nothing wrong with that , this is as it should be, but some of you are tending to think you are their “representatives” for want of a better word. For those of you who believe that riders are never consulted or spoken to, you are just plain wrong.

Even worse for me is that some posts are clearly meant to insult, much of the content is inaccurate or plain untruthful and is quoted from the rear end rather than from actual knowledge or accuracy

Frustratingly however ,some of the posts have a mixture of very good constructive comment , but this is often mixed in with some inaccurate or over simplistic stuff.

One of the things that really gets to me is that all posts except mine and I think Mick Wren, and one or two others where it is obvious , are always from persons using a nom de plume . I would personally like some of the more critical and insulting ones to have the balls to put an actual name to the comments, then we could actually assess the validity and of the person to comment. I am starting to suspect that many comments are from people who actually never actually do sod all, and even worse reading between the lines I am not even convinced they actually ride that much at any level. Perhaps even if you do not use your name you could humour me and just add your riding or organisational experience of BC?

I would like to try to sort the wheat out from some chaff.

Anyone , I repeat anyone who believes that the Stop or No Stop debate is likely to just go away is deluded. It will not . It has been about for many years, and in my opinion has been, and still is ( these posts prove that) a canker in the side of Trials.

This is an attempt to lance that boil one why or another, or at the very least get people to put up or shut up.

Sorry, that also applies to many of you. Some speak with great authority on what C/Course and organisers should do, even more about how everything should be done. Well again , carry on and show us.

Before anyone starts to tell me that I am some sort of old fart convinced about No-Stop rules , let me assure you I may be old but I am not convinced that they will work for the British Championship, but I am totally convinced it is time to at least give it a try , and many sensible, open minded people feel the same. And , this is important, they are not all No –Stop fanatics, not old codgers. Many are young and in fact are far far better riders than many who have decided they have some superior knowledge of the subject

I keep hearing about what the riders want – how do you know? How can anyone actually know at present ? Certainly you MAY know from some you have spoken to, but in reality as there was a very small Championship sector in first place, this may not show a representative view of riders who are “ likely or able” to contest the series in the Championship class. I have never actually believed that the whole criteria should be judged by the actual number of riders in top class, and all other members T& E have felt same. It should not be a deciding factor ( else there would be no World Championship in many other sporting events where only a handful can compete at top level) BUT it is a factor and cannot be ignored. Someone has to put on the events, and if you have not spent hours and hours doing so ( although I know some contributors have) it is very difficult to understand how organisers can feel.

Some sensible posts have mentioned how we moved away from No-Stop rules in the first place? That is well worth debate, and in simple terms it probably was largely because of the difficulty in Observing when the machine stopped. So there you have it, a possible problem

However, as time as moved on , certainly SSDT , S3 Parts, Traditional, Trail and Sammy Miller etc have all used the No-Stop rules and it appears that the Observers do not have that many problems and these events seem to be much enjoyed. However , it also has to be acknowledged that the British Championship is at a higher level – and a five , perhaps wrongly awarded would have far more consequence? Possibly ? Actually more debateable than first thoughts. Is it not arrogant to believe that the top riders in the S3 Parts or others ( and I cannot help notice that many of the top 3 Brit Champ riders often ride them even when not contracted to do so?) could be awarded a five , but for some reason it is not fair or equitable to award one for the same offence to riders in the Brit Championship ?

This probably leads us back to a more important point , what exactly do we want from our British Championship?

Unlike probably all others posting replies I was very instrumental in insisting that the British Championship should follow the FIM rules. Until 2012 I probably believed passionately that we should not disadvantage our top riders. I think I still do : how much plainer can I make it ?

HOWEVER , sometimes things have to be re-assed in view of reality rather than philosophy.

When many of you speak about these “ top UK riders in World rounds” who exactly are you talking about?

Have you actually looked at the entry list of UK riders in the World series at present? I talk about the adult Championship class , as Youth and Women rules have not changed in UK

Do not let the UK round influence your thinking , we must look at the whole series. Realistically , and yes, unfortunately our participation has dwindled. We cannot blame No-Stop rules for this.

Despite some of your ludicrous comments, I will confirm that before we even thought of changing the rules to No-Stop , I was unable to confirm 100% more than ONE top name who would be contesting the Brit Champ & World series in 2012. This was in Oct / November. We were told some might if they could, we were told some had no intention of competing in BC series, we were told some would not even get a bike to ride them on. This may be water under the bridge. It is however fact. It is commendable to try to have concern for our top riders but it is also a fact that for lots of reasons their participation is limited. Have a look at the adult entries in the recent UEM round in Italy and you may get the point.

Please please do not bother to reply and state if the Federation gave them sheds of money/ support a big lorry and everything else they would flock there – dream on. If you really believe that , simples , make a proposal via your Club and Centre that the ACU licence/registration fee is increased to that of other countries such as Spain/Italy/France etc , but have the balls to put your name to the actual proposal.

Next , if we deduce that it is desirable to have a Brit Championship to assist these top riders toward FIM honours , that is the exact deduction the ACU Trials and Enduro C/tee have made for years.

Please also realise that this desire to not disadvantage the British World riders causes huge problems with the calendar in both Trials and Enduro. We have always tried to insist that the British Championship rounds take priority over others date wise .This is difficult. The FIM dates are not confirmed until Autumn, and this often ballses up the UK calendar. One would THINK that it would have no effect on Centre and other Championship events , but it does. Some clubs find it hard to organise a British Championship on a particular date ( set on influence from Word and UEM rounds – including World Indoor where some years we only have one rider) We try not to disadvantage our riders and often the British Championship dates have an unexpected influence on other events. Some British Trials Championship organisers have Clerks of Course, Officials and Observers who wish to ride in other Championships such as Sammy Miller etc and some parents want to be at Youth events. In summary for many years the ACU , T & E have worked very hard to ensure the BC had priority – and frankly a lot of Clubs and Centres in both Trials and Enduro are a bit fed up of it, and will state that we have been too concerned with the riders competing in World events and we should leave them get on with it and not over influence the BC and the British calendar. We have not agreed with this sentiment and had constantly tried to support our riders in quest for International honours, so it is absurd to imply that we take no heed of such things.

Of all the things I get involved in ACU wise, the formation of the calendar is the hardest and think I enjoy least, and this is primarily because in both Trial and Enduro we as a C/tee have always tried not to disadvantage our International riders. I accept that this may be going off on tangent, but I use it to show that it is ridiculous to try to imply that we have no thought for riders as they move up the ladder or compete in FIM events .

Again I ask some of the people who infer this to answer me a simple question : “ What have you done to help our riders” Have you put on events for them ? Supported them? Tried at least to ensure that they have at least some ACU funding, even if small to help the younger ones dip a toe in the water at European level ( probably about £ ¼ million for Trials & Enduro combined since I have been Chairman)

On a personal note, I am not sure how someone like myself who has been Clerk of Course for last two outdoor World Championship trials plus last two Indoor World trials can always be accused of wanting to back to the old days and have no concept of modern trials etc ? It is just not logical. This applies equally to other T & E members. It is absurd to think somehow a few of you are experts on FIM matters and we know nothing. Several members of present T & E Committee have worked their socks off to bring World Trials to our shores.

There was a period when UK had no World trials for a few years. Who resurrected it and put it on at Hawkstone , who marked it, cleaned the toilets, sold the programmes etc ? The present T & E Committee or those who were there at time, and who put it on the next year , and a European the year after that? The Midland Centre under guidance of present T & E Committee man Tim Fairbrother. Who is Clerk of Course and presently working hard to ensure World round in Penrith this year : Mick Wren, member of present T & E.

How many of you have written to the organiser volunteered to help out if needed?

So please debate the BC till the cows come home but some of you need stop the B*****ks about how you know all about World events and we know and do nothing, I am afraid the reverse is very much true.

It is equally absurd to imply that all the riders would contest BC if it were the sole qualification for TDN . That would certainly have ruled out a young lad called Douglas Lampkin for a few years let alone Jack Challinor. Simple fact – if you are the best riders in any sport you will get selected for teams – if you are not you will not – end of.

Top riders will ride where the Manufacturers and Importers influence them and where they feel they can progress best regardless of discipline. Paul Edmondson, Dougie Lampkin, Jack Challoner , David Knight, as well as some of our current top stars are just some who have had to up sticks and ride abroad in quest for World honours - little criticism from us for doing so , it needed to be done

So has our philosophy of making British Championship a stepping stone to World and showcase for our top riders worked in recent years? Probably not

Let us not waste a lot of time on the normal platitudes rolled out – IF the British Championship had better organisers, better venues with good large parking facilities, better Clerk of Course and better weather, all on TV etc it would attract more entries and everything would be wonderful. Correct.

But IF my Auntie had balls she would be my Uncle. We have what we have. Everyone including my dog would accept the sort of things listed above. But most expect someone else to do it all.

We have what we have. There has been no long list of new Organisers rushing forward to organise a round, regardless of calibre. True , we reduced the rounds from 8 to 6 this year and two organisers ( including my own) were omitted , but this was nothing to do with rules, it was done before that, it was more to do with the economies of travel etc.

All those to say that the British Championship should have XYZ – I applaud you. BUT then I ask why you or your club have not bothered to try to do so ? Why not?

Is it a case of the old adage : “ Do as I say not as I do”?

There is another important point to be made. While some of you constantly criticise older people for their Non Stop views , I would ask that you actually look at who is putting on the events most of you ( I am convinced some of you never actually ride) enjoy every week, and many of these are Stop allowed. In my own Club and Centre, lots of people believe passionately about No-Stop BUT our Club and Centre currently run Stop allowed. These enthusiasts still have the decency to work, observe, be Clerk of Course and so on – these are my heroes. They do not harp on and let personal views detract them from putting on events regardless of rules. These are the people I want to associate with – stuff the rules

The fact is that it is many of the people who you roundly condemn for having a view that does not agree with yours. Why? Can they not have a view? If they believe the current Championship has lost its way, they have every right to say so. They put in more effort to our sport than many of you. If they feel they have no voice or influence, but some of you think you have , we are in for a dire future.

Equally, if you believe that without actually trying the No-Stop system for BC that those who are convinced about it are going to concede that it should always stay Stop allowed, you probably also believe in Father Xmas , and no-one has the right to expound that everyone else is wrong. The No-Stop enthusiasts may be correct, they may be wrong, but I do know that many put a hell of a lot into the sport, often running Stop Allowed events, and their views are as important as anyone else – actually more so than the dolts who do sod all, of which there are many

So why are the organisers not rushing forward to run BC ? It is difficult to explain and the reasons will vary, especially to those who have not tried to be involved ( the majority)

I can say that Clubs and their members who have spend days or weeks , given up their riding time and family time to put on an event are always going to be disappointed when they find they are catering for perhaps only 6 riders in the Championship class. We are well aware that there are another 50 in the Expert Class A ( this actually started to shrink dramatically) and Expert B classes – BUT in reality it is about “ perception” and like it or not many pundits have perceived that only the Championship class show a true picture of a Championship. I do not actually agree with that, but do see how people arrive at such a conclusion. One only has to go back through old TC posts to see that. Unfortunately you may also see that some posts take on a hypocritical aspect and heavily criticised the small Championship entries , but are now critical of a system that for now at least has increased this class, like I said, some are jumping on the bandwagon.

So what is the answer. betabeta actually stated it . We have to accept that for many of the potential riders probably those outside the top 3 or 4 , the sections have been far too difficult.

Many others have expressed this view . All are 100% correct. But then go on to say that the Organisers or Clerk of Course should have been made to ease them and think of majority.

Wonderful, What a revelation ! I would never have thought of that !

But also what short memories you have.

Each and every year the Organisers/Clerks of Course are assembled , and guess what ? It has been accepted that this should happen. So then what happens , well I am afraid things have not always or even often gone as planned.

I wish I had a pint for every time we arrived at a solution ie One third of sections hard for top 3or 4, One third medium to cater for about 50% of class and One third easier to cater for 100% of class,,. Fantastic – but does/did it happen? Unfortunately not. Why ? Not so easy to work out.

Some facts – which I have witnessed not guessed

• Many times over many years when the Clerk of Course has tried to do this , he has been criticised by some of top riders for doing so – fact.
  

Why , well perhaps understandable. These riders obviously want harder sections to hone skills and prepare for World rounds , and of course as with top riders in any series from BC to Sammy Miller, they are aware that if they do lose a five in a predominantly easy trials they cannot recover it . This has always been case regardless of any rules.

• It is a fact that the very few top riders are often more vociferous with their views and they and entourage do tend to influence things unduly. Equally us mere mortals and Clerks of Course tend to look up to them and are more inclined to listen to them than the lesser lights – fact
  

• In every Championship round I have been to in last couple of years ( most) I have assembled all the riders at end of practice and gone through each class section by section and asked for riders views in presence of Clerk of Course , with the intention of the lower Championship riders being able to state that certain sections were too hard. They have rarely done so ( the big step in then Westwood trials last year a very good example) Possibly they do not like to show in front of the top 3 or 4 that they are less able ? I do not know, but again it is fact. I am not blaming the top 3 or 4 for this, they obviously want it as hard as possible, but have been supportive in the above effort and prepared to listen to others – but it just ain’t happened . The lesser Championship riders have had it too hard, and this in turn has had the effect of others moving down , giving up and certainly not encouraged new riders into top class.
  

• It can be used as an excuse I know, but we have to accept that British weather has over the years had a fair old influence. In last years St Davids at end of Saturday practice, changes were made and should have been good for Sunday. You had to actually be there to see what the weather was like and the effect it had. Equally Scarborough two years ago was hit by a very heavy frost which made a huge difference it is not an exact science, but too many times it has gone wrong – fact
  

• Many, especially betabeta have commented about what a Clerk of Course should do , fair enough
  

I can honestly and sincerely say that I have never yet met a Clerk of Course ( and that is all of them for BC for many years) who has set out to make it far too hard. Yes it has often happened for many reasons, some listed above. It is not an exact science. Years ago the Clerk of Course could assess sections better because he may have been a useful rider and tried them ? Who the hell can do that know? As I said it is not an exact science

How many of you have actually tried it? I have – I can tell you it ain’t easy

How about this for a novel idea – the organisers decide where the sections go, clean them out etc - and place a large bag of markers there on Friday afternoon, or even Saturday morning and the riders turn up and place them ? Could be divided up into : Top 3 mark 4 sections , middle lot mark 4 and lesser Championship riders mark 4 sections.

Let me just pause and close my window as there is a pig flying past

• If for any reason – the Clerk of Course does get it wrong, and they certainly have, and have made them too difficult what do we do – Shoot him ? Tell him not to do it again? Take his licence off him?
  

I know quite a few Clerks of Course who had enough and would welcome all but the first one. They have tried and tried and worked their butts off, with little thanks

Read the TC posts over last few years. Read reports and letters in papers , would you feel like marking out the sections? This is not just about rules.

Should we have tried other systems without changing the rules ? Well we did

Some have short memories , a few years ago we had the 50/50 system . Championship riders did 6 Championship sections and 6 Expert A ones . Experts did same 6 Expert ones and 6 easier ones

We also tried a variety of other formulae to try to cater for more riders in Championship class - many Centres attempt similar type of systems

Did it work ? Well not really. The top Championship riders complained they only had 6 Championship sections , so it was not worth effort. Logically then this must be the case if we had easier Championship sections for more riders. The World contenders ( whoever they are) will always want it has hard as possible. They are probably correct

Some of you have commented that the top riders are now disadvantaged at FIM level. Again I think you may be correct

James, Michael, Alex will confirm that I have announced to them that I think they are – fact. Yes they are Guinea pigs this year, BUT I am afraid the time has arrived to look at the wider spectrum

Also the Championship last year was not exactly pleasing them either. It was time for change – it was time to try something.

I am not convinced that riding 6 days under present No Stop will particularly harm the top 3 riders – else why would 6 days riding at SSDT be considered

It may well be that we have to make a British Championship more fit for purpose for a majority , and then introduce a Championship , like a European Open over 6 rounds , limited to only the very best and those going to contest World and European honours with possibly only 10 riders allowed? Obviously under FIM rules.

In conclusion we will wait and see. Debate is good, but bandwagon jumping is not . I give an example of a post which stated “ Dibs cleaned every section except one – I believe he “ felt” he had cleaned “ I think the photo made that clear ? and Dibs to his credit never ever claimed he had cleaned it – he was first to admit he had fived it .

It is early days – can we just watch and learn ? and for the prat who stated that if it did not work the ACU would not admit it and go back – you clearly do not know me or rest of C/tee.

Equally if it does work we will also say so.

I suspect it will be a bit of both

[nigel dabster]

Very interesting and passionate as always John, I have always beeen a great supporter of the ACU and will continue to do so. Having spoken to Gary Thompson (at our trials pratice area here in mk) I can only say how impressed I was by him and his views and hope this good work continues.

Can I gather from your (long!) response that the number one aim of the rule change is to get more riders in the Full championship class?

You also mentioned economies of competing in the championship is it too obvious to run two day events 3 times rather than 6 events?

[atomant]

I have always beeen a great supporter of the ACU and will continue to do so.

'I'm very against the reversion to old rules for just the elite six events,'

'Until the ACU/clubs promote the events properly they will not be a shop window to our sport which they should be under whatever set of rules.'

'Why then cant they have just six elite btc events on fim rules defeats me.'

'the rules should match the fim'

'surely no stop and a practise lap is daft?'

Some really great supportive comments here dabster !

[john collins]

After such a long response I obviously do not wish to tie up the TC site with another one!

But just to answer the few queries above

Is the intention to get more riders into the Championship class – well yes this would be ideal of course, but more importantly it is not to have a Championship that prevents them from competing and makes the top end so elitist that only 2 or 3 are able to contest it

The Championship class will never probably be for every man and his dog, but there have been some very good riders who have dropped out of it , not necessarily through a lack of ability, but because it was just getting too much, they are not always able to devote the degree of practice, not able to always find a minder

( especially when going out to practice) and of course many have to go to work on a Monday, and far too often if you are not up there and on it at previous level – there was a risk of injury etc

As I have stated – there is a very good case for suggesting that a small number of very specialist events – possibly also trying to get some riders from outside UK ( like Jonty Edmunds has done with his Enduro Sprint series) may be worth considering – but possibly this would not be the British Championship , but a very specialised British Open or such – but very very limited participation – under FIM rules obviously. We will see.

Yes the idea of two day events is a possibility and we have looked at it seriously ( as we have combining Youth A & B on same day) , but again easier said than done. Many organisers need the Friday for final preparation of course etc and then finish a lot off on Saturday when more club members are available ( I know this is the morning when results/ toilets / road marking gets done, caravans put in place, often farmer moves stock from field on Friday evening and many do not want hassle of having to put them somewhere else for extra day etc etc etc) It is never easy getting Observers and for one day is not so bad – for two days ?Not always so easy. Travel – maybe an over simplification but many riders, especially lower order finish work on Friday teatime and then have Friday evening/Saturday morning to travel to event. I know to my cost ( almost got sack) that when I contested British Enduro Championship for many years it was the having to travel and pinch time from work on the Friday that caused me problems. Some areas where the British Championship run are more sensitive than we may think, and locals/village etc now are really affected for about 1.5 days. A two day event can cause a few more problems.

It is not a bad idea – and we have looked at it, and will probably do so again, but as always the devil is in the actual detail- and we are working with hard working Clubs who can only do so much and take so much time off work.

Practice – yes this was a very debatable one for No-Stop that is true. BUT it is early days and it may be that Clerk of Course will find it useful to evaluate the section severity etc – and as stated is gives us a chance to get all the riders together at end of it and at least ask their opinion which I think is a step forward

I will end now – it is early days. For sure not everywhere will be as suitable as Scotland – but I still think let us just watch and form valid opinions a little later down line

[nigel dabster]

Thanks John.

[big john]

I think John Collins just about covered every angle there in his comments.

Debate is a good thing but it is tiring when comments come from people who were not even at the Scottish round of the BTC and of course have all the answers...NOT!

Big John

(aka John Moffat)

[atomant]

I'm sorry guys but why exactly do you have to be at an event before you have the 'right' to proffer an opinion on something? I wasn't at 9/11 but me and probably 4 billion people who also weren't will have an opinion on it and they have the right to express it whether its deemed B*****ks or not. This is after all an open trials related forum and by that very fact, people should be able to say what they want as long as its within the forum rules.

[chewy]

Looks like Breagh and I are now a minority of 2 regards trials testing the bikes (although I.m not mad about tyres being the only control); It seems telecat slapped me down with his usual metaphorical poke in the ribs. Fortunatly this is a forum for discussion , I can't see why the reliability of trials bikes shouldn't be part of the competitive process in a trials competition.

[nigel dabster]

Looks like Breagh and I are now a minority of 2 regards trials testing the bikes (although I.m not mad about tyres being the only control); It seems telecat slapped me down with his usual metaphorical poke in the ribs. Fortunatly this is a forum for discussion , I can't see why the reliability of trials bikes shouldn't be part of the competitive process in a trials competition.

.....because its 2012 not 1912. Things have moved on,ssdt is a reliability trial, we are talking btc. Whilst tyres may well be a good idea to reduce severity clearly thats not necessary as you can mark an easier trial anyway. Besides the point that we cant go it alone on a fundamental rule such as this, would a change like that put one more bum on a seat?

[smalley250]

Ive sussed it. The BCT should enforce to ride side saddle, end of

[cubby]

And thats why I love the ACU, they ain't perfect, but it is clear many people drastically under estimate how much passion and work they put into our sport.

Well done John, and like you said it is clear that the time for a constructive debate will be after the next 5 days of trialing!

My personal view, I think it is about time this was given a go because many people have been saying no-stop is the way forward for years (well we will see won't we). Spain tried something different, it proved that wasn't the way to go, hopefully this will answer the no-stop question and the sport can continue to develop and progress.

One other thing, it seems that a number of centres, on hearing that the BTC was changing rules, decided they also had to change. Is this right? In the IOM Centre we run stop allowed for our 6 Centre Championship Road based trials, and non-stop for the Manx 2 Day National. No issues really with either, the only moans are when a section is too hard under either rules!

I think that at local and centre level the stop allowed rules work better because it allows a bit more leeway, means you don't get penalised so much for stops etc. If the sport was structured so that as you progressed to National level you had to ride no-stop, it is just a natural progression, i.e. the better you get at the techniques, the less hesitation, the fewer stops you need. The section severity would hopefully be a bit more accessable meaning more people would put themselves up for the challenge (maybe!)

Other sports have different sets of rules at grass-roots level compared to the top level, whether it is equipment or actual game rules. These have been designed over years to encourage more people into the sport and as a participant goes through the various levels they adapt and develop to the rules they have to comply with. Trials isn't and shouldn't be any different.