baz883 Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 Well done for observing but surely here lies part of the problem. I could ride your section totally non stop using deliberate dabs to get round tight parts for a 3. The the next guy hops and stops, should be fived and gets away with a clean. How's that fair? If there's a set of rules we should stick to them, it's the only way. If it's still not working go back to hopping, the clubs can still run either at club level. But this is getting away from Ben's point. Ben I agree 100% with you and well done for airing your views. In the spirit of the post..... My name is Barry Huskinson, an ex cyle trials rider who used to do a ton of demos and now works at OSET, i also rode the last round of the Btc at westwood albeit on the easier expert route. I have to say i am not adverse to a rule change and i totally agree that something needed to be done in order to raise entries and to make the championship competitive again. As it was last year under stop permitted rules the sections in my view were not nessacarily better or worse to ride but they did require you do have a minder to keep you on time in the section, to catch you or more importantly the bike if you were to fail. The sections as they were before were far more physical so in order to do your best your minder needed to be fit to carry all the water and tools to keep you going. As it is now the rule change certianly makes it cheaper i dont need to pay for an extra room in the hotel, his assistant fee, so the no minder thing means i can travel with a friend and we can share the diesel bill, and seeing as i am from the south and most of the events arnt that is a worthwile saving. The above quote hits the nail on the head for me, and this is where i feel the organisors feel down in the second round, (something which the organisors of round 1 got very right). There was no riders briefing, no observers briefing either which leads to observers trying to do thier best unfortunately with no clear standard to observe too, observers gave the benefit of the doubt in some places and in others the letter of the law was applied. It is not the rule change thats the problem it is how difficult it makes it not to end up with a grey area. In a lot of cases if you were to come in and take a dilliberate dab swing it round and keep moving you would have scored better than if you tried to ride it feet up and got 5'd for a split second pause (which is what happened to brown, i saw it!!) Furthermore The venue didnt lend itself to no stop sections, what they set out got changed by the importers which ment you had too many 'cooks spoiling the broth' and the sections that we ended up were an amalagamation of after thoughts. Other faux pas were made too, on the practice lap (a concept which i think detracts from the sport, but thats for another day) for instance there were no observers so many of the entry were having several goes at it to get it right, now that ok if everyone gets the same number of goes but when u have to get off to your hotel and get sorted you cant, those that camped can! There are loads of issues here and for me it will be a shame if the rules are percieved to not work, when that isnt and never has been the main problem. If we want more entries at that level this is what i suggest 2 laps 18 sections (4 really hard, 5 hard, 5 medium, 4 easy) 2 routes championship and expert No practice lap on the sat Impartial catchers supplied by the club in dangerous spots (train them on a course of how to do it what is safe and what is not and pay them for a days work!) even if it means putting an extra tenner on the entry fee The events need to be marketed better, more attention to flyers in the local town, pre event demos and videos in the local town square, really sell it to people then and only then will paying spectators start to come and watch (non trials people) and see how close you can get to the action to the top riders what other sport can you say your 2 feet away from someone who is world level??! The events need commentary to keep everyone up to speed and to keep the crowd enthused We should be using electronic scoring systems by now to keep the score board up to date section by section. If the acu were to employee some one to facilitate the development and oversee the running of all the events, who actioned all of the above, kept an eye on the numbers and made it a viable business all of a sudden riders could say to thier sponsors look at me look what ive won look how many people i reached with your brand atthe week end. The structure would then be there for up and comming riders to break into teams when there talant deserved it and not rely on mum and dads purse to fund the hobby. Then we would have 20 proffesionals and not just 2! Anyway i have bored you all to tears so im gonna get off to football training where it is a lot cheaper and less political! Ciao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdmc Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Well Ben Congratulations on putting your thoughts in writing on this forum in your own name.. Trouble is there is no other actual comments from any other rider. Well not anyone who is prepared to use their own name. It has created quite a debate with many of the same forum members going off the actual subject, Raising their same arguments which has been going on for years but just put in a slightly different way. The majority of the comments are regarding the observing (good or bad) but the most serious is the accusation of 'altering the sections' without the C o C permission. But lets get back to Ben comments Some questions: 1 Was there a meeting where the riders requested the sections to be altered. If so was it a majority decision to alter 2 If the sections were altered by 'others' without permission has the organising Club , Yorkshire Centre and ACU stewards mentioned this in their reports. These reports go to the ACU for discussion. 3 If 'others' did alter the the sections why did the CoC allow it to continue. Was it discussed with the CoC and Stewards? 4 Were the 'others' going to withdraw riders from the trial if 'others' did not get their own way. 4 Ben, have you put your thoughts in writing to the Governing body in this case the ACU, and the organising club.( I don't mean via this forum) I know I wont get the official answers via this forum but I hope J C posts his personal comments on 'what happened' when he has had time to sort out the relevant comments from this subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big john Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 I bet there are loads of riders in Scotland reading this topic and thinking....What a bunch of fannies you lot are !! Actually, I understand what the DBF is getting at...he has a point! One sport - One set of rules? Pity the FIM don't read this lot! Question: Is the sport of trials really a spectator sport? - It never really has been - perhaps never will! (Big John, 2012) Big John 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Whilst it is not a spectator sport it would be good in this day and age to have a shop window. things have moved on since I rode a btc in the 80's and the best lads can do stuff that is both spectacular and amazing just as the sucess of sheffield has shown trials can be watched by thousands. Its not the FIM you have to convince its riders here in the uk (wasnt a poll split last time we asked stop or no stop?) and then France spain and italy. Good luck with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 I hope J C posts his personal comments on 'what happened' when he has had time to sort out the relevant comments from this subject. By JC I assume you mean John Collins and not Jesus Christ John's had problems logging on which I've been trying to sort out with him, but he's off on travels so can't progress things until he gets back. I'm sure he'll provide his usual comprehensive response once back online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie_lejeune Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Do you think the observers were instructed to 5 all riders for a split second stop at the BTC? If so all that would create is bad feeling. Speaking only fromSSDT experience I would never 5 a rider as long as they are making a genuine attempt to keep moving. Perhaps that's it"genuine moving rules",sound's rubbish. surely a stop is a 5? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie_lejeune Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 By JC I assume you mean John Collins and not Jesus Christ John's had problems logging on which I've been trying to sort out with him, but he's off on travels so can't progress things until he gets back. I'm sure he'll provide his usual comprehensive response once back online. some day you will pay for that remark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdmc Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 If Jesus Christ wants to answer it will be interesting. Will he log on a JC or use his correct name, Time will tell. What riders put comments on here?. I have not noticed many. I have read comments from names that I have never seen riding trials, or on entry form. Ben used his own name, well done Ben. Lets have comments from the riders (sponsored) who rode the event using their actual name. Dare you or are you under orders to keep mum. What about the other 60+ riders lets see your comment on the event. Again use your real name.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldilocks Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 surely a stop is a 5? yes and surely going backwards under stop permitted is a five but that happens every week. either set of rules applied on a zero tolerance basis will result in much higher scores. observers apply flexibility to account, occaisionally, for sections that are actually too hard. Over time this has contributed to sections getting harder as when the coc looks at the results he thinks lots of people got through the section. In reality they should have been fives and next year that section needs to be easier. i'm not chipping into this as a btc rider but i have posted as this is an issue for trials in general. If we want no latitude from the obervers then section severity has to reduce. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big john Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 yes and surely going backwards under stop permitted is a five but that happens every week. either set of rules applied on a zero tolerance basis will result in much higher scores. observers apply flexibility to account, occaisionally, for sections that are actually too hard. Over time this has contributed to sections getting harder as when the coc looks at the results he thinks lots of people got through the section. In reality they should have been fives and next year that section needs to be easier. i'm not chipping into this as a btc rider but i have posted as this is an issue for trials in general. If we want no latitude from the obervers then section severity has to reduce. Yip I totally agree, observers being lenient and interpreting the rules for themselves doesn't help on bit! I don't ride BTC or the SSDT, but as I'm charged (at the moment) with others to govern the sport up here in Scotland, I think I have earned the right to comment? Big John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Yip I totally agree, observers being lenient and interpreting the rules for themselves doesn't help on bit! I don't ride BTC or the SSDT, but as I'm charged (at the moment) with others to govern the sport up here in Scotland, I think I have earned the right to comment? Big John Agreed. There will always be different interpretations of the action. 'Did the ball cross the line or not?' However, it is wrong to apply the rules incorrectly on purpose. Letting riders get away with a stop because the section is hard, is no different to a Ref giving a goal when he knew the ball hadn't crossed the line, just because it was a damned good shot and it deserved to be a goal! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bony_toe Posted May 26, 2012 Report Share Posted May 26, 2012 I've never ridden in an organised trial before and in my opinion,the ACU should be listening to what people like Ben are saying. On a different note,but connected and very much relevant. The British mainstream media have an (unwritten) list of things that they do not want talked about. Unfortunately, motorbikes are on that list.All motorbikers are Hells Angels apparently.The SSDT is the oldest bike trial in the world but i've not heard a word about it on the BBC. The TT started yesterday,do the BBC know or care??? IF the ACU or anyone else are really serious about encouraging Trials to grow then they should come up with the cash to make a new version of Kickstart to be shown on the BBC.One season of Kickstart shown at 5 or 6pm will encourage more kids into the sport than anything the ACU do rule change wise...I know it will cost a lot,but, if it's popular then it'll pay for itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted May 27, 2012 Report Share Posted May 27, 2012 Agreed. There will always be different interpretations of the action. 'Did the ball cross the line or not?' However, it is wrong to apply the rules incorrectly on purpose. Letting riders get away with a stop because the section is hard, is no different to a Ref giving a goal when he knew the ball hadn't crossed the line, just because it was a damned good shot and it deserved to be a goal! Right then John, what would you do with that shot of Lampkin at SSDT, maintaining dynamics and continuing forward motion, mind you are half up the hill? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bilc0 Posted May 27, 2012 Report Share Posted May 27, 2012 When the British moto cross championship came to devon a few weeks ago it was highilghted on the local TV news with the great former moto cross world champion Dave Thorpe promoting the event along with a couple of the local riders. This kind of promoting costs nothing yet you've covered a county or 2 in one free hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdmc Posted May 27, 2012 Report Share Posted May 27, 2012 Well Ben I tried to get the subject back onto your comments but it seems that it now has gone to Motorcross,Kick Start and the BBC. Can we get back to the subject please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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